Well, it would be helpful to me to hear from you something about how practice or Zen practice or whatever practice you have influences your, affects your practice if you're a therapist, or what affects your thinking about yourself psychologically. And also, those of you, most of you in a way, have been at seminars I've done in the past. Is there anything that comes to mind from seminars I've done in the past with you that's influenced your thinking about the fact that you're working as a psychotherapist or thinking about yourself psychologically?

[01:14]

It's partly because, you know, in different countries, I mean, although I've spoken about this before, Not so often, but now and then. But as I look at Buddhism more and more from various perspectives, my sense of how the Laya Vijnana functions, etc., of course, develops. We'll find out when I start talking about it. For me it's A-V-J. Because I type in A-V-J and Alajvijana appears.

[02:30]

And then I also thought I should speak about and review a bit mindfulness. That's ways to get started here. But I think that generally it's not well understood. Okay, so what about my questions? Yes.

[03:38]

I begin to think I haven't said anything all these years. Your hair is different. It looks nice. Yeah. Yeah, and Deutsch first is best. Good. To interrupt for one minute. Yeah. It was a bell. Uh-huh. A time-release capsule sashimi. A time release capsule appeared. Yes. And then I remember a sentence, because in therapy there is a lot about acceptance, that you accept yourself, that you accept your past. And then I always remember a sentence from Oshie, don't take anything away and don't add anything.

[04:41]

And then, since a lot of practice is about acceptance, there's always a phrase that comes to mind for me that you also said, and it's the phrase, not taking anything away and not adding anything. Okay. The last time I was to practice something like the here and now, or even to accept what is. The first reply that comes to me is a shift from And this is a more general thing, but from knowledge in the sense of concepts to not knowing.

[05:55]

And awareness psychotherapy really stuck with me from the last seminars that we did. And for me that's the territory in which I would locate myself. And I would really like to hear more about Ayatollah. Yeah, I know her. You started talking about how I locate myself. I feel more located in space. In a field? Yes, it's a feeling, it's a spacious feeling. But then it's particularly also about the space that I and the client generate mutual today. And what I'm very interested in is what informs this room, and above all, since I'm the one people come to because they want something, how is this room informed?

[07:49]

Depending on where I localize myself. And then particularly interesting for me is the question, what is the space informed by? And also since people come to me as a therapist, also how does my location inform the space? And then this mutual creation is interesting to me. Yeah, I'm not expecting you to answer this question, not because it's unanswerable, but just because I'm putting it out as a thought. It's fairly well established in you. And you try to establish it in the relationship with the client as well. Okay, but how would one establish this is the question? How would one establish such a practice, teaching, in a curriculum of a psychological program at a university?

[09:06]

I mean, she could teach them how to do sashins in short build units. I had heard that exercising, and if you don't want to exercise half an hour or an hour at a time, if you exercise now and then for five or ten minutes during the day, it's almost as effective. So maybe it applies to sashins, too. My quest for myself led me to Kreslov about nine years ago. It led me to Germany then, so I couldn't forget. Now here I am. Do you translate yourself right away, or should I translate you? Yes, I can translate myself. I'm actually looking for myself, and I think it's easy to be a bit more conditioned in the future. Conditioning was very negative.

[10:20]

And with the help of psychedelics, I came to a point recognizing bringing this light that way. And with the help of psychedelics, I came to a point recognizing bringing this light that And the quest is going on. This is it. It's unfolding in a very natural way, in a different way. It's like a big, big, big puzzle. One piece after the other piece. It's very, very amazing. Because only this, let me move my heart away, by the scriptural view,

[11:25]

Yes, it's good if you translate it. Yes, I was in a condo at the time. I had never been there before. I tried to find myself in that big bus. I was very scared. I had a lot of money. [...] See how the puzzle continues. Someone else. First of all, I am noticing that therefore also I as an instrument in the therapeutic relationship am changing and that informs also the relationship to my client and my work.

[12:45]

And so my access to what is new from this new realm is not the same as when I did not do any practice yet, for example, because I collect a lot of intuitive knowledge about myself and about what happens in therapy. And so my access to this new space is that I'm gathering a lot of intuitive knowledge about myself and about what's happening through practice and this new space is not the same that it was before I started to practice. And that's also very exciting and mysterious and also for me it's kind of difficult to put it into words, even into the words of psychology. But in this way it works.

[13:51]

Otherwise, when I try to translate what Buddhism is and what Buddhism has to say, what you can take, then it gets really tight for me. certain concepts into psychology, of course, for example, mindfulness would work, but that way the relation would stay very narrow. But taking the detour through my experience opens up very new possibilities that otherwise would not have opened up. Anyone else want to say something? Möchte noch jemand was sagen? Yes, I would also say that I am more active in the practice and the more texts I enter, the more I experience that a space opens up in which more and more is heard. I would just like to add that I used to be very active in life, but by going more and more into silence or stillness, there's this space that's opening up where

[15:17]

What is interesting for me is that practice is a completely different space for me than the space I know from psychology. I'm always looking for to see what is the psyche and what is the spirit that arises through practice. And there I already have the feeling that these are two very, very different things. I don't even have the feeling at the moment, at least through practice, necessarily to get much closer to my psyche, but really to create a space that perhaps encompasses the psyche, but is still much further. So I think that in practice there are many concepts and experiences that I can hardly establish in psychology. This has a lot to do with the term self, I think, because in psychology a lot of things are viewed from the perspective or from the understanding of one's self and not in practice.

[16:27]

For me it's also interesting to look at the different spaces that practice open up and that psychology open up because I feel like the space that I get into when I explore psychology or the psyche is very, very different from what I cultivate by sitting between psychology and Buddhism. And I think that, I mean, that's my understanding anyway, that there's a main difference around the understanding of self, because in psychology all the processes and dynamics are understood from the perspective of a self. A self is assumed and then all the dynamics seem get a very different shape than when you come from a point of view of practice where there's no such permanent entity. It just opens up a very different mind and you become a very different person, I feel, than when you go through a psychological school.

[17:35]

Well, it's interesting. One thing that I found interesting that you said is that when you explore yourself, something like this you said, psychologically, you find yourself in a different territory of experience. That leads to certain experiences. And the way Buddhism and Zen describe, assume what being alive is, leads to different experiences. And the way Buddhism and Zen assume how it is to be alive, to be alive, that leads to other experiences. So let's just assume that this is actually the case. then that could mean that the way in which you describe yourself, describe your world, has a lot to do with what you become, what you are.

[18:54]

then it could also mean that the way you describe yourself and the way you describe the world has a lot to do with what you are and what you will be. And I would, unequivocally, say that that's at least to a very significant degree true. Then we could say, okay, if we have two ways of describing the world, is it a simple matter then that we choose the one that produces the better human being? Descriptions, yeah, let's do them all, 34. Psychedelics gives us one description of, you know. So, but 34 is too many. So 34. What choice do we make that allows choices within the choice we make?

[20:08]

I'm not trying to answer this. I'm just saying this seems to me to be valid questions. And... I think it permeates everything. Meaning if you don't agree with it at all, you have to show that you don't agree with it. All right. So it's, again, it's become a major way of describing human life. Buddhism, at least in Europe and America and much of Asia, has been and is coming a major way to describe what our human life can be.

[21:23]

And I would say that in Europe and in America, these two ways of describing human life have to have some mutual development. I don't mean overlapping development or some kind of merged development, but perhaps two separate developments, which is probably going to be the case, but that are informed by each other. And it's been going on. I mean, I've been an adult through most of the process of its getting to know each other.

[22:37]

In the early and mid-60s, at least in America, there was definite hostility from psychotherapists and psychologists about Lusitania. And it was brushed off or not taken seriously. And then, you know, now there's hardly a psychologist or psychotherapist alive who doesn't pay, has something to say about Buddhism. When you bring Theravadan Buddhism to the West. And in... Theravadan Buddhism in the West, called Vipassana Buddhism, very many of the teachers are also psychotherapists.

[24:02]

are also psychotherapists. They either start out as psychotherapists, or after practicing vipassana Buddhism for a while, they decide to train as psychotherapists. Almost the opposite is true in Zen. In fact, when I have had people practicing with me who started out as psychotherapists, And, for example, when living in Crestone, I have asked them, and they have found it also necessary, to find out, if they eventually do practice the psychotherapy, how to keep these two approaches interrelated but separate.

[25:23]

And I've found through doing Doksan, which most of you know, but is the means to go alone to see the teacher, where you and the… where the teacher and the practitioner are sitting face to face, yeah, usually sitting in some kind of meditative posture. Whatever they described to me, I thought, you know, I'd repeat back to them what they said. Is that what you said?

[26:32]

And I'd say yes. But it was taken as psychotherapeutic advice coming from me to them. And then they developed a psychotherapeutic relationship with transference and, you know, So I don't know how I've learned to do it, but I don't let it happen anymore. And I recommend people see psychotherapists or say, want to talk to me? I don't know. But anyway, I keep it separate. But again, these are two ways of describing what our human life is. Googled Buddhism and psychotherapy.

[27:56]

I've never done it before. I look up obscure things every now and then. But I've never done the obvious what that Buddhism says. And I didn't proceed past the second page. But quick scans of the articles said nothing. They had basically obvious or superficial insights into observations about the relationship. So that's very interesting. It tells us, you know, from the 60s till now, which is what, 40 years or so. You know, I have been in this room quite a lot in my life.

[28:58]

In recent years I've been in this corner for a lot of hours. So I can feel, rising from the rug, the person I've been sitting here in the past. It's kind of nice, like coming home or something. You can think of this little corner as my home. And that has something to do with a lot of it now. We'll come back to that. So, maybe we should have a break. Okay, thanks. Thanks for being here.

[30:26]

Thanks for having me. Thank you for coming. Thank you for translating. You're welcome. It's going to be the same as the heights in the UK. It's not on the wall.

[30:43]

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