I don't know, such a small group. There must be some advantage to it. So maybe, I think it's the smallest group I've spoken to in 20 years or something like that. It's good, it's exciting. So... I mean, there must be something new we can discover, having just so few of us. At first, because you've been hearing I've been working on this book for a very long time, and you're bored with the idea. But the editor actually changed, took 600 pages and turned it into 200 and sent it back and said, let's publish it as it is.

[01:01]

But of course I have to look at it, but that shouldn't take me so long. So when Guni told me that she thought we should cancel it, I thought, oh good, I'll I'll take this time, which I just had three days at Rastenberg, and I'm going to have some days between now and Munchen. And then, so I said, oh, well, good, I'll have a chance to work on the book. Und da habe ich mir gedacht, ja, das ist ganz gut, da kann ich am Buch arbeiten. Maybe it's now really possible to finish it this year.

[02:11]

Und vielleicht ist es wirklich möglich, es heuer zu publizieren. Remember how long it took me to do your little essay for the book. Und erinnere mich daran, wie lange es gebraucht hat, bis dieser kleine Aufsatz in deinem Buch herausgekommen ist, aber ich bin auch damit fertig geworden. Yeah, so it's possible that I'll do it. So then, but then I made the mistake of saying to Kuni, well, who's coming? So once she told me your names, I said, oh, okay, I come. Kuni said, we discussed maybe I could work on the book and, I don't know if that's possible, but anyway, here we are. That's exciting. If I'm doing this, I think I have to concentrate on this. So, does anyone have something you'd like to bring up about... Oh, I thought we were translating.

[03:29]

I alone, no, we alone are the world-honored ones. Do you understand why I said that? No, because the baby Buddha statues, He probably walked, he supposedly walked seven steps and put up his hand like this and said, I alone am the world honored one. In this case it was we. So some kind of idea about this simple but slippery perhaps idea of a background mind. Also irgendeine Vorstellung von dieser einfachen, aber doch vielleicht etwas flüchtigen Vorstellung des Hintergrundgeistes. Well, yesterday I had an exciting report from Eric after the evening. So I got some message and it's interesting to me.

[04:33]

After Paul was in Vienna, we came together at an evening and we talked about also about psychotherapy and practice. And the question was, can the problem from your personal history be somehow taken care of by practice? So this is an open question. That's your question now? No, no, no, that's not the question. And Eric told me yesterday you said that you were astonished that Eric couldn't bring his problems or whatever it was into his... I wasn't astonished at all. You were not astonished, okay. I expected it. So my question is, what would a practitioner do with his...

[05:40]

narrative. Yeah, so because my experience of practice is that a lot you are dropping the storylines. You're feeling the feelings, but you're dropping the storylines. And as I see psychotherapy, what you're doing there, you enter the narrative. And You somehow bring up the feelings by entering the narrative, I don't know. So what would a practitioner... Deutsch, bitte. ...do? Also, gestern habe ich einen Bericht bekommen nach dieser Abendsitzung von Erich und das ist für mich sehr interessant, was da gesprochen wurde. She's the one they want to hear. Her voice is coming out clearer than yours is. Oh. Okay.

[06:42]

personal problems that come from the history, whether they can somehow encompass it or whether something is left over, for which you then need psychotherapy. And And my experience in practice is that a lot of these stories and these stories about oneself, that you tend to drop it, that you perceive the feelings, but not so much go into the stories. And also the practice with this focusing on perception and so on, it somehow leads out of these personal, mental stories. Were you really astonished, or did you think I was astonished? I had somehow the feeling that you didn't expect it somehow. I got the feeling that somehow practice should take care of that. Oh, really? I didn't say that. I didn't say that.

[08:20]

You expressively, in another seminar, said there are two ways to get rid of problems, and there are areas of problems that you can't touch, practice, and vice versa. And it's true. It was the... And just last night I didn't say that too. Deutsch bitte. No. Yeah, it confirms my view, actually, what you said last night. Yeah, that actually they're much more different processes than they overlap.

[09:24]

That's why I actually... pretty strongly object to all this talk about Buddhist psychology. I mean, from a point of view of kind of loose thinking, you can say Buddhist psychology. But that the whole Buddhist and psychological scene is guilty of loose thinking discourages me. I expect a little more rigor. But on the other hand, it makes me feel maybe I'm just a little nuts, because why don't I just go along with the crowd?

[10:36]

And even if you make a case for a wide definition of psychology, It's still more useful to see the differences than to see the similarities. But I said that last night I would wait till today or tomorrow, probably tomorrow, and ask Eric to make a presentation and then we can discuss it. So today I'd like to start out speaking about, if anyone has anything to say about this elusive idea of a background mind, or is it very clear? My question is one step before this background, where you said you move away from the content to the field.

[11:54]

And what you say, what you emphasize very much in your examples ten years ago, so, was you have A and you have B. Ten years ago? Okay. You don't use it very often. Yeah, yeah. And you said, okay, A doesn't exist and B doesn't exist. What really exists is A, B, and B, and E. So is that what you mean somehow by B? that the field is the relation between the object and the observer. Is there a fee because of the feeling level or what I experience is when I, if I move to the content, I can be, I see the object rather clear and precise, but I don't have the feeling of me as an observer. And if I am moving more to the field, it's more, the feeling is more,

[13:11]

It's more, as if the picture gets more blown up, like if you have a blown up picture, and it's more causal to it, and it's more an open feeling in my body, it's not so shut off. But also the picture isn't sharp. I'm sorry. No, I'm sorry. No, no, no, Deutsch bitte. So my question is a step forward in this background. Roger said we should move away from the content and move to the field. And an example that Roger used very often in A few years ago, I said A and B, he clarified it very well, object to object, A and B, and A and B do not exist, but only this relationship exists. My question was, is it possible, is it this relationship? And based on more experience, it is so, when I concentrate on the content, then I have a very clear idea of what I am explaining, but when I talk about it,

[14:23]

and the image becomes something like the enlargement of a photo. It becomes so rough. Okay, before I respond, let me make him aside. I recently gave, I want to tell you something Gerald said, but let me just say, Gerald Vaishede, I recently gave him transmission. And some of you know him. He's been at Johanneshof with his wife Gisela for the last five years since we started. And he was at Crestone for ten years or so before that. He was here last year.

[15:26]

He was here last year for the seminar, that's right, yeah. Two years ago? So he's going to, he could do anything he wants now, but he's going, seems he and Gisela haven't had much time as a couple for the last 15 or more years. Sure. Presently, they plan to live somewhere near Freiburg for a while. And actually, it's the custom at some point in your practice to have at least a few years and even 10 years of a kind of fallow time where you don't formally practice and don't teach.

[16:36]

And Paul practiced for quite a long years. And then we could say you had a long, fairly fallow time. Where you had a business and a little foundation and worked for Governor Brown and so forth. So he had his fallow period before transmission. So Paul's also received transmission in this lineage. Yeah, I'm happy because it allows the Dharmasanka much more depth to have more than just me teaching.

[17:45]

So I'm happy he just finished this Sashina in Johanneshof. Yeah. And as I said last night, people like to enjoy the sashin. Do you enjoy a sashin? Enjoy the sashin. It may be joyful, but do you enjoy it? Okay. And there's this long sign-up list for his next session already. So Gerald, was it just at Tassajara for the Crestone, for the practice period? And he was struck by how different my lectures are at Crestone than in seminars and in Europe.

[19:01]

And if I think about the difference, maybe here in Europe I tend to speak about perhaps the paintings. But in a practice period, or a place like Creston, I tend to speak about the brushstrokes. You know, we more study in some, like three months together, you can more study the brush strokes of your life rather than the painting of your life. So I just came as I... As I told you, from six months or more at Christo.

[20:11]

And I probably have not shifted entirely yet. So I may be speaking about the background mind in such detail last night in terms of repetition and so forth. Perhaps I'm too much into the brushstrokes and it's not good for us. Yeah, well, if you have three months, you can look at the brushstrokes and finally the last day look at the painting. Here, even though it's longer than most seminars, I don't know how much we can look at the brush strokes, but if you want to, we can. Aber hier, es ist ein bisschen länger als andere Seminare.

[21:16]

Ich weiß nicht, wie viel wir uns die Pinselstriche anschauen können. Aber wenn ihr das wollt, dann können wir es tun. But we still have to end up with a feeling of the painting or it's pretty hard to practice with just brush strokes. Aber wir müssen doch irgendwie am Ende so ein Gefühl für das Gemälde, für das Bild haben, denn es ist nicht genug, einfach nur mit den Pinselstrichen zu praktizieren. Okay, so that's now going back to what you said. Certainly the sense of, came up yesterday at dinner at Rostenberg actually, this sense of this doesn't exist and this doesn't exist, but the relationship exists. That certainly falls as part of the view that what exists are relationships in Buddhism. And it does generate a kind of field.

[22:26]

And in fact, there's a name for the field. It's called an ayatana. But that's not really what I mean by background mind. But this kind of sort this out is maybe useful, so anyone else have something to say? Yeah. I've been listening to your seminars for a few years and it was amazing for me that... You or me? You. Translate yourself. Yes. Okay. that you gave yesterday a very clear list of what the first level of the Zen practice is.

[23:38]

For me, this is a great relief, because it is now a kind of recipe for me to be able to complete these practices on this first level for me. I'm hearing your seminar since some years, but this is the first time hearing these seminars for some years. But yesterday evening, at the first time, as I can remember, you gave a more or less complete list or recipe what the first level of Zen practice is. And it's a very relieving program because sometimes I had the feeling I... I understood the teaching to make this crossroad and this crossroad, but for me it had no... Covetion. Overall, yeah.

[24:38]

Covetion, yeah. So now I have the feeling, if I did a misunderstanding yesterday, now I have, okay, that's the thing to do in the next years. Okay. [...] Yeah, yeah, you're welcome. Let's see if someone else has something to say. I want to talk about an experience which I had a short time ago, which really surprised me. I had the opportunity to be present when a colleague of mine worked and to watch him.

[25:55]

And the name of his work is the same as my work, so they named it Aufstellung. By saying that, do you mean it's different and only has the same name or it's the same work? So it was so different from what I... Even it had the same name, I see. And being present, still it felt so good. So my impression was he's really doing a great job. Oh. Surprising to me was that the feedback of people to his work was that they were so touched and it was easy to go along with him.

[27:23]

And it's the same when I'm doing this work, they say the same to me. In my brain I tried to somehow put this together. And that there was this feeling somehow that we all are creating this, we all are making this. And although there is something from which all this arises. And this feeling doesn't leave me.

[28:37]

I don't lose this feeling. It stays with me. Can I repeat? The feeling that although the two approaches are different, and various approaches are different, but they're arising from some common feeling, yeah? And I don't quite understand this field from which this all arises. What it is. And what really surprised me was this somehow equality or equal value to what he does and what I do and what different people do. Yeah. Well, I would say that's something like background mind.

[29:58]

But I would express it in this case that it's very much like what I would call that is equivalent to what you're saying, which is the mind of the lineage that Paul and I and all of us to some extent are participating in. And this isn't just a horizontal lineage in this contemporary time, but going back a long time. But I have the feeling, for instance, that I can, and I think most of the time I'm right, if I see some story of some Zen teacher, I see a few examples of

[30:59]

or something this person said or did. Yeah, and this might be hundreds of years ago. Or a thousand. And I say, oh, that's my lineage, I know that. It arises from, it's a little different than the other lineages. And it's of course been different for centuries and these are different people in different ages and yet I can see that it's coming out of the same field. A field that's not the same as all other fields. So then we could think about that and say, how does that relate to emptiness? Is emptiness a field which is free of, which is the same for everyone.

[32:22]

So that's just a question in relationship to what I said we could talk about, which is the emptiness gates during this seminar. That I said we would talk about. I like having my Griesler team here. Yeah. Did this exchange we have, was that understandable or make sense? Yes. I have the feature in very much a connection with you in my practice.

[33:24]

And somehow the connection becomes clearer when I'm also able to see the differences. What differences? And so it's something about the sameness of a shared sense becomes clearer when there's also some slight change or difference. And when I become aware of that, I feel the connection even stronger. So that's a little how I felt when you were talking to me. That's good, yeah. It should be that way.

[34:25]

It made me, but you're saying it reminded me of I just spent twice now quite a bit of time with Charlotte Selver. Do any of you know her? She's 101 now. And she's still coming to Europe to teach. So I was sitting with her with Sophia, because she wrote me a little note saying she wanted to meet Sophia. So I went to see her one month, and I happened to be in the Bay Area again, and so I brought Sophia and Marie-Louise. The Bay Area means the San Francisco area.

[35:30]

San Francisco Bay. Yeah. So anyway, I'm sitting holding her hand and she's speaking. And she... She's not like a lot of old people. They get into reminisces, which just, there's no content to the present. It's all reminisces. Sorry. A lot of old people, much younger than she, get into reminiscing and there's no content to the presence. So anyway, I said, she was talking though about when we first met. And I said, I knew I provoked this reaction, actually.

[36:35]

So I said, yes, and during that first seminar, I had many small enlightenment experiences. And she drew herself up, you know, what do you mean small? And she drew herself up, you know, what do you mean small? At 101, I think you can have a little chutzpah like that. And I said, so I had to cover myself. So I said, if you tell everyone to leave, I'll tell you how big they were. And I told you the story, didn't I, about when she called me up and was so pleased by my getting married. Did I tell you that story? No. She called me up two or three years ago and said, Dick, I'm so happy, so surprised, wonderful that you got married.

[37:48]

So guess what I did? She said, guess what I did. I said, I don't know, what did you do? She said, I got married too. At 99, right? So I said, really, you got married? She said, yes, and the age difference is about the same. What? And I said, Marie-Louise, Charlotte got married and she seems to like younger men. And Charlotte and Marie-Louise said, does she have a choice? So I told I told her and her husband this story.

[38:53]

Her husband's name is Peter, and they thought it was very funny. Older women usually complain they can't find husbands. Yes, someone else wanted to say something. You've lost weight, haven't you? Very athletic. There's a special reason to it. And I want to report an experience. Because yesterday I tried to feel out what for me could be background mind.

[40:05]

And immediately in my mind I was on the Jacob's path. Jacob's ladder. No, there's this pilgrimage path. Oh, I see. So... So I experienced how for me in the background, like a roof to that which I'm experiencing, a roof, a dach, there is a feeling or a consciousness for me Which leads me or guides me.

[41:23]

In different ways this showed itself to me. So how I experienced myself when I tried to plan the path or the way I would go. So almost at once, there was this feeling of .. Superstition? No. No? You know. A feeling of superiority.

[42:24]

Superiority because you were taking this path, yeah. Yeah. Because I then felt that I cannot plan this path. And I felt that there is a part which I can contribute, and this is my part in it. But it's limited. And one example, when at the end this became really clear to me, This was one day ahead of Santiago.

[43:27]

One day of walking ahead of... What does Santiago... In Spain. Yeah. And it's a very holy place. You were in Spain? Yeah. That's the path. That's Santiago? Oh, I see. Okay. Okay. So there was a stone about a pilgrim, a stone where you could, you know, remember, memorial stone.

[44:29]

And he died 25 kilometers ahead of Santiago on this spot. Someone did. Yeah. I had, you mean before something? Before, yeah. Okay. Kept, yeah. So this was also my feeling that there is something which is beyond my wish and my possibilities. And this feeling and... they changed my wishes.

[45:40]

Your wishes in general in life? How I wished for the path to be in the ahead of me. And that was so So this was one of these dimensions of the path and my feeling was there were several other dimensions of this path. So that these dimensions gave those who walked the path a consciousness together somehow. And we all were alone?

[47:01]

Most of these were alone on this pilgrimage? Not alone, but by themselves. Yeah. Yeah. But when we had an exchange about our experience on different places, on this path, in different times, but there was really so much common experience and also this feeling I also experienced that on this path. Very strongly there was this, the most important thing is the walking with the body

[48:02]

So the body for me and for the others. The body became really something in the instance. It was somehow like a new relevance to the body as something you are listening to. And this body feeling really formed our experience. And also changed specific situations and gave different light to experience. And how many kilometers was the whole walk?

[49:38]

It's long. There's a pilgrimage in Japan that's done to 88 temples, I believe. In Shikoku, where Kobo Daishi founded the tantric school of Buddhism in Japan. Kobo Daishi. And he supposedly practiced at these 88 spots where later they built temples. And Katrin Birkel, who is a Just was head monk at Crestone, his last practice period.

[50:56]

And he's now moving to... Frankfurt, I believe. From Hamburg. But she speaks Chinese and Japanese and lived in Japan quite a while, and she did this pilgrimage, and it's about 2,500 kilometers, I think. But no one does it straight. Usually they do two or three temples in a weekend or a week, and then they go home, and then a few months later they come and they do another stretch. But she has similar stories of stopping and people helping her and the people making the pilgrimage gathering together and so forth. And partly don't you think it's just the simple walking that is part of it?

[52:35]

And think about it. Not so long ago, everyone walked everywhere. And what a different body we had. Yeah. Yeah. There's a koan I think is one of the most useful to study, where the core of it is a question, where are you going? I'm going on pilgrimage. Ich gehe auf eine Pilgerreise. Where are you going? Wohin gehst du?

[53:46]

I don't know. Ich weiß es nicht. And then the teacher responds, not knowing is nearest. Und dann ist die Antwort des Lehrers, es nicht zu wissen liegt am nächsten. And that seems to have been your experience too. Und das scheint auch deine Erfahrung gewesen zu sein. And that's again one of these As I said in this kind of trying to create a picture of practice, that's one of these phrases we can bring in to practice. And I believe that also the feeling you've expressed is a good example of the more subtle fruit of background mind, where background mind isn't just an experience of some kind of detachment,

[54:55]

The word actually in Japanese means detached, yet not separate from. But this sense of a background mind that goes beyond that to a mind from which you function through not knowing. So this background mind sense is a kind of island in the middle of practice which begins to cover your whole practice. So I think now is a good time to take a break and then we'll come back. I'm glad this is not Saturday morning. Like in most seminars.

[56:15]

We'd have to finish tomorrow morning. So I don't... We can go slowly. Okay. Thank you for the examples you gave or resonances you gave before the break. And for... You're the only new person today. And you. And you. So perhaps it's of some use.

[57:24]

So you weren't here last night. So someone else has something they would like to bring up about this. Please. So there's an experience and also a question which also comes together with what Christine and Erich brought up. A short time ago, Michael and I experienced something. Michael made a joke and this hurt me. And it was totally clear that he didn't want to hurt me.

[58:44]

But he did it in spite of that. And I was really hurt and I also was confused because I didn't know how I should understand it. And at the same time, I knew that we are just creating something. We are inventing. We are inventing a misunderstanding. And I really felt being in the midst of this misunderstanding. And that I would like to go to this element without further ado would be that there is actually something and that it can affect us a lot, although it is not a misunderstanding at all.

[60:16]

And at the same time, I knew that if I would take my sense of humor or something, that there is a level where I can stay calm and there is no misunderstanding at this level. And at the same time, something within me said, you have to take care of that. If you don't take care on that level where you feel hurt, it will come back again. And Michael really made an effort. He was somehow startled. He put an effort in it. Me too, and we were completely helpless.

[61:18]

And then he only spoke about what kind of state it was when he said that, what she said. And this somehow, this talking, somehow dissolved it or let it dissolve. And it was somehow like this talking about how he said that it would satisfy both levels. And during this process, there was also a voice within me which said, Christine, don't take care of that. It's not important. So I had the feeling there are two possible ways to deal with it.

[62:54]

And that's something I deal with now. Where do we have to take care of the specific things? And by that, we also have to be in conflict with each other. And what are the things which you can just let pass through? How can you find a balance between these two? Yeah. Thank you for such a small little problem. I need all my Buddhist power here to get this out of here.

[63:57]

I want to see. Oh. I also would like to talk about the background mind, how my experience of it or... Does it continue with her or can I respond to her first? Sure, sorry. Okay. It's somehow continuing. Oh, then continue. Um... It is somehow detached from the normal identity. It is somehow a little bit of a retreat. And for me it is very much connected to this practice of the four foundations of mindfulness. which somehow opens up a room where a lot can move in me.

[65:04]

And the background spirit is for me very much the seeing of what happens in me. It's just a space that I create by happening, more or less. And there are a lot of movements on different levels, body, feelings, thoughts and so on. And I don't have to pull it together in any center that I am then. That is for me the experience of the background spirit. So my experience of background mind is strongly connected to the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness. It's somehow an experience of being de-centered somehow.

[66:05]

De-centered. De-centered. Okay. So that by experiencing, it's like a sphere where I experience all these movements within me on the level of body or feelings and thoughts or mental formations. And this background mind is strongly seeing, a sphere of seeing what kind of movements are there within me. And I don't have to put this together in a center, which I then call me. And... And these parts also are more in connection with the surroundings. So there is not me, which is in relationship to something outside, but all these parts are somehow There's more like a flow.

[67:12]

And this background mind also allows me in my relationship with my husband to somehow take part in our... When it gets difficult, it allows me to see what's happening. And I think it's possible to make decisions if you see. So you can decide, I want to get into that or I don't want to get into that. And this background spirit also helps me when it becomes difficult with my husband. Then, because it becomes possible to see what is happening there at all, clearer to see, then I can also decide, do I want to, so do I react to it now somehow or do I let it go or what happens at all?

[68:16]

Oh well, the kind of questions that I feel in both of what you brought up are questions I'm constantly asking myself. You know, I can't say that I have answers to the questions. Because I feel that we're engaged in this together, so really we have various kinds of shared experience. And the context of answers, if I looked at tradition, don't apply. Because I think we are in a...

[69:30]

We're in an unusual situation, first of all, because we're trying to talk about this practice here in the West. And we're speaking about the practice in a way that is influenced by our contemporary ideas, of course. And the thinking philosophy science of the last hundred years or so is very much an unavoidable part of the way we use Buddhist ideas and terms. So that's already different. Yeah, and then I don't think, and excuse me for continuingly setting the scene for what I'm saying, But I feel there's a kind of dishonesty in not setting the scene and speaking about this as if it were something universal.

[71:15]

Okay. Now, what's also different about this scene in addition to it being in a new culture? Of course, a very particular new culture. Yeah, but also, I don't think we've ever, there's ever been a period that I know about, at least not that's carried in the tradition, of what I'd have to call a lay-adept practice. Yeah, so, In your case, for instance, if you were a practitioner in earlier centuries, you'd only have intimate relationships or close relationships with people who'd practiced about the same as you.

[72:44]

And most others, you'd have a certain distance in your relationship. So it means, and of course, most of these were male monks mostly who carried the tradition. And the teacher would have close relationships with only very few people and rather distant relationships with a lot of people. Intimate but distant. So the kind of questions you have wouldn't come up. So, you know, these kinds of questions that you ask, we simply wouldn't have noticed.

[74:01]

No, it's interesting, Eric and Christina's experience, because they've both been practicing the same length of time. Not that time is the only measure, but it's a pretty big measure in terms of maturity. Now, at present, let me, because it's of course on my mind, let me use Sophia as an example of something. Although she's sometimes aggressive to us or particularly to Marie-Louise.

[75:34]

Getting quite fierce sometimes and biting her finger or something like that. Yes. And we say, where's this fierceness come from? She's fighting for her own space. Or even seems to sometimes resent being so dependent on her mother. But there's some agreed upon at present. There's some larger agreement that she accepts that what we're doing is best for her. And that agreement I see in my two older daughters. I don't think we ever lost that agreement with our two older daughters.

[76:45]

I don't think they didn't individuate, but there was no teenage rebellion or anything like that. And still if I speak to either of my daughters, 39 and 23, 39 and 23. There's still an immediate agreement between us that if I'm trying to speak about something, it's I'm speaking about something that's best for... I might be wrong, but I'm trying to speak about something that's best for us both. Yeah, there's no feeling of she's just putting up with her father speaking or her mother speaking. Putting up.

[78:02]

Well, going along with it because I'm the father or mother. Okay. So somehow we've been able to keep an underlying trust in the relationship. Okay. Now, when that underlying trust is present in a marriage, you can let a lot of things pass. Um... And that's something like that underlying trust is something like background mind. So you can shift like you did and say, oh, in this other point of view, this is not important. It's not something I can take as a hurt. Now, if both of you have practiced, or both of you have a similar kind of undisturbable quality to mind,

[79:11]

Then I think there's no problem in making this shift. But in most relationships where one doesn't practice or the practice is different, At some point, these things which, as you said, if you didn't deal with it, it might continue to be damaging or hurt. These things accumulate if they're not dealt with. And they begin to undermine the trust.

[80:31]

So then you're out of the territory of Buddhism, perhaps, and you're into the territory of psychology. Or at least some kind of mutual understanding of some disagreements that go on between people. I certainly find something like that happening with Marie-Louise. She's much younger than me and she hasn't practiced much and so forth. And she's just I should have her agreement to say these things, but she's just not as... She's also not as old, of course.

[81:36]

Used to just accepting things. Things bother her more than things bother me. And I can ignore the bother, but then if I ignore the bother, that doesn't make her feel good. So then I have to get myself bothered about it, so I don't ignore her bother. It gets kind of complicated. And it was interesting, in the years before I joined Marie Louise's life, I'd come to a point where I was pretty much continuously happy. I'd go to bed at night and literally I would start just saying, I'm so happy. And I'd wake up with, oh, I'm sorry. And my dreams were always very clear and are virtually not there.

[83:05]

And now I'm married and am I as happy? Not in that way. But I'm more satisfied perhaps. But I would say that the state, the feeling I had before was more like mature monastic life produced. And then you can you know, you feel pretty good all the time, etc. Then you can recommend this to others and they don't know what you're talking about because they live a very different life. So how to sort this out?

[84:08]

You know, that's, I think, what we're doing. I mean, I'm sorting it out, but we each are involved with how to sort it out. Yes, please. Could you please talk some more about trust? Because at Rustenberg you said the sentence trusting the non-trust? Also trusting in not trusting. So this was somehow bringing together all of the seminar for me. So and now you're coming back to this trust in the background mind.

[85:19]

I think I said to be clear about being not clear. But maybe I also extended that to... We can extend that to trusting, not trusting. Clarity as a fruit of practice is not to be... To make this point again, clarity as a fruit of practice... To make this point again, is not to be always clear, but to be clear when you're not clear. Because if you can clearly see when you're not clear, then you can do something about it. And that ability to clearly see when you're not clear is a quality of background mind.

[86:29]

No. Oh, there's a certain... I wish that... I wish we could all just live together for the next 10 years. Because here we... In Rastenberg we came to this, how the practice of the eightfold body in effect generates a truth, eightfold path generates a truth body. And I think two or three years ago our subject was the eightfold path here, wasn't it? But we went a somewhat different direction with it than I just did in Rastenberg.

[87:33]

And I wish we shared all this so that we could... Yeah, so I have to keep starting over. But at least I'm not starting over with beginners. That makes a big difference. And we've been meeting together Twelve years, ten years, twelve years. That's pretty impressive, even if it's only one week or less than one week a year. And I'm amazed we're sticking together, or why not? Yeah.

[88:41]

Do you want to say again what I asked? Did I respond, or do you want to ask again? It's still working. So clarity, I feel, it's simple. Mm-hmm. So maybe it's because trust is more in the realm of feeling and clarity is not exactly for me. And for me it's just a central axis in not trusting, trusting in not trusting. And this sentence is so central for me, trusting in non-trust.

[89:47]

So trust and background mind, somehow there is a gap, I need a connection between the two. I believe last year I used the phrase to pause for the particular, or I emphasized the particular. No, I sat out here during the break out here on the deck,

[90:53]

in the sun and looking at this lovely handmade landscape. And made with a lot of care. I hope we're not ruining it with too much building and stuff. And, you know, it's fierce, beautiful. But it's not a postcard. There's all kinds of, I mean, processes going on to make the trees and the ground and the animal life and so forth.

[92:07]

And I think one of the main insights of Buddhism There's lots of processes going on here, too. The particular emphasis of Buddhism is the processes of knowing, perception, conception, and so forth. Always asking, maybe first of all, the process of how we know Now I think here in the West we start with an unspoken assumption of some kind of soul or spirit or inner nature.

[93:31]

Yeah. So we're always looking at... You know, we have this inner nature, how do we express it, feel it, know it? And that is a big, mostly unnoticed or unconscious approach in our way of thinking about ourselves. Okay. Now the Buddhist view, the yogic view, is more how did we make what's there? Now that's a very different beginning point.

[94:49]

We're not starting with the beginning point of what's there, but how did we make what's there? Yeah, I mean, I'm just trying to speak toward this subject in some realistic way, so I hope you can be patient with my seeking a way to speak about it. Okay, yeah. May I just ask a question? That means in a dogmatic way, You don't grow up with the feeling there is a soul and a body. But what tells them? Because I grew up as a European, trained from the very beginning.

[95:51]

There is everything what I encounter is my soul. And then there is this physical thing that is more or less attached to the soul in different ways sometimes. More or less attached to the soul. And I always try knowing this split between soul and body. Is there another possibility to view the world from the beginning? Not as a merging process later on when you mature. I'm not feeling that. Is there another way of living your life, feeling there is inner body and this specific outer body? My question is, do you know other people on this planet who encounter their life differently?

[97:03]

I sure do. Okay. Das tue ich ganz sicher. Also, solange ich lebe, so bin ich halt aufgewachsen, gibt es für mich so vieles innere Erleben, was ich an Seele nenne, also gut, das ist auch nicht, nein, ich werde oftens mehr oder weniger weit entfernt und dann wird einer sich das andere zu punkten. Schauen wir, die Leute, gibt es also offensichtlich Menschen, die Yeah, by the way, before we go further, is lunch at 1 or something like that? Okay. When you said, are there people who have a sense of an inner body and an outer body, what did you mean by inner body?

[98:13]

Is that something like soul? Well, I think that... First of all, I'm not idealizing, I don't want to idealize Japan, China, Asia or something. Because the fact is, whether you're Chinese, Japanese or Austrian, you have to live...

[98:51]

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