Yeah, well, that's the ideal. But when you have that, you're actually generating a monastic life. If you live together. Yeah, that's the ideal anyway. Apparently there are too few teachers, because what you say is that what you realize that there is such a false way of teaching Zen, that what you really see and witness is you're freaking your body when you see what is called the Zen, so probably there are not enough people to have this close relationship with. And also what in your apprehension are the really bad or the wrong, or the most damaging aspects of Zen taught as you?

[01:06]

Well, I mean, Martin pointed out some. And I think it's also just using Zen as a... Thinking Zen means don't think. Or using Zen to find a way to function without developing yourself. By the way, what time is dinner supposed to be? You said 2.30. Did I? Okay, fine. I forgot what I said. We should take a break. 7. Okay. So why don't we take a break and come back. And... Let me say one thing to finish here. The question I kept asking you, how do you generate the vision? I was... Okay.

[02:09]

It gives me a chance to think. In Zen practice, the relationship between the teacher and disciple... The tradition has been developed that you live together. How to make use of an hour a week has not been developed. so you live with somebody for at least some months and you see them in all the contexts of their life and you begin to if we talk in terms of channels you begin to refuse to respond to them in conceptual channels So when they bring you certain states of mind, you either in a very small way relate to those states of mind, just out of courtesy, or you project them.

[03:29]

So the first five years or seven or so years of my practice were I worked at a university and I went back and forth and I was a student and so forth. So I only saw my teacher every morning. And then I've created ways to work with him, doing a little publication with him, helping him with his English and so forth. So together we tried to create ways we could spend some time together, do something together. But in the sense of stopping working at a certain level, he did in a kind of somewhat, for me, dramatic way. For just about exactly one year, he stopped looking at me.

[04:49]

He never said what he was doing or anything. After meditation went, we would greet him as we went out the door. I gave a little greeting bow and he just bowed to me but didn't look at me. And then after I'd go in his office a few days later and he kind of acknowledged me but he would never include me or look at me. So I decided, I don't know what he's doing, but I don't care. So I decided he's going to be my teacher whether he liked it or not.

[05:49]

I felt if he doesn't want to look at me, that's his problem. If he doesn't want to look at me, that's his problem. So I just had to find other ways to relate to him than the usual ways of exchanging some kind of acknowledgement. And he actually didn't let up once for a full year. And no one else knew what was going on. I didn't discuss it with anybody else. No other students noticed it because I was just, I don't know, this funny feeling. And after a year, just about a year, suddenly one morning smiled at me and looked to me.

[06:49]

We never mentioned it. So what you did, I mean, but that is a kind of what he used in lay practice situation. On a monastic practice, it would be probably more subtle. But when you, but the sense of feeling the, when you talked about how you relate to a client, in Zen practice, when you do have the contact between the teacher and the apprentice, you listen on one level, Or deny that level. But then you listen on another level or feel on another level.

[07:50]

And there's a kind of assumption that if you feel that way, you tend to awaken that in the other person. Then you listen to what they want or what their vision is. And you let that communication go on without interfering with it. So Zen practice becomes a way to let a kind of communication start happening, which after a while does not need much contact to continue. It's a little like, I see you now. But you're actually in the past. Because there's distance separating us.

[08:52]

But I have the sensation of a present because you're in my eye field. But if you were in New York right now, you would definitely not be in my eye field anymore and you'd be further in the past because it would take time to get to you. But if you were in my body field and I can feel you, And also feel you when you're in New York. Then you're in another kind of present. And that's basically the idea of lineage. And how teaching is past, so it's a kind of continuous present, because a hundred years ago or a thousand years ago is another kind, it's just... I mean, we're also separated by it.

[09:53]

There's a past here, but it's just not so obvious. So one last thing is that when you, sometimes you're talking to somebody, And they're expressing their suffering or difficulty to you or their fears or whatever. And I'm talking about a situation that happened recently. And I'm listening to this person and I'm completely sympathetic with them. And I can feel what they feel. At the same time, I can see if they could only see it from a slightly different angle, they'd feel completely at ease. So I also try to generate that feeling of seeing it from another angle at the same time I'm empathizing with it.

[10:54]

And in fact, about a week later, this person came to me and said, suddenly all these fears disappeared, and I see some joy started welling up in me, and so forth. So you're trying to work with being empathetic with one side, but also empathetic with the other possibility that's there, only with a slight turn in the way they view their situation. So I was thinking of that in terms of you bringing up a kind of vision and how you interact with that. Okay, so why don't we take... maybe till 6.15 and we'll come back, something like that. Okay, thanks. For me, my fond desire in doing this was to learn as much as I can in this situation and from you because I really see the crucial interface

[12:20]

between Buddhism and Western process of individuation, as the most fruitful field for the development of Buddhism in the West. But to get to the point where we can discuss that clearly would just take more time than developing a common language than we have in just a weekend. So if I lived around here, I'd love to meet with you once a month or something like that. Privately once a week. Thank you very much. Oh yeah, where is that? Oh yeah, I don't know if Christiana would give it to me permanently, but... But... All right, I'm coming.

[13:55]

But we've kind of fumbled along and done something today. What would you like to do this evening and tomorrow? I mean, should we continue as we are? Should we break up into smaller groups and have some discussion to sort of pick up, work on some language? Or someone suggested that I do this five skandhas and maybe the vijnanas. I don't know. What should we do? Do what? She said she would like to pick up one of the threads we've developed and discuss the small groups and then bring this together.

[15:18]

You brought up, before we had that... The break? The idea of real concrete goings-on. plan of developing a school where I relate to lay people. Oh yeah, how to do that. You mean... Yeah, to go... Another thing we could do is... I feel if we look at one thing really thoroughly, It's in the end more productive than looking at a lot of things a little bit. And also the way Buddhism has been developed as a teaching is each teaching, and even at the simplest level, expands into the whole of Buddhism.

[16:19]

So it might be, you know, one thing we might do this evening is to sort of think about what we might really work on or look at tomorrow and more thoroughly, if we all agree that we want to do that. And so we can think about what we want to do tomorrow. I would be as well interested in the past hours and to discuss what we shall do tomorrow, what we could do afterwards when this is finished and you are gone. So we have some tea or something. I think we can sit together because we are too late. I think the big thing that psychologists and Buddhists need to focus on is their personal development.

[17:31]

What the big psychological schools accuse Buddhism of, that they don't deal enough with the individual development. On the other hand, what I hear from Richard is that he says in his psychological work that it is not broadly addressed and that it is more about self-conceptuality. And what I hear from Richard a lot is that in the other direction that psychotherapy or psychology is not broad enough, that everything's turning around the conceptual level around the self and dealing with elements from the past, and this has no real substance. Well, that's maybe a little extreme version of my definition. Okay. What we could look at, because there are so many different aspects of it, would be the personality, self-concepts, no-self-concepts, non-self-concepts, that this could be said from the neutral side, from the zen side, and we could try to explain what actually is maturity from what you are telling us.

[19:00]

or what a healing process is. Psychologically, we often try to represent it in a different way. It's not just about the past, as Scherz said, but that there is also a concept of development in it. That's what I'm trying to say. Whoever knows beyond something You know, in the practice of meditation, you can't do that. In our work, too, it's like that. We should also use the time to really discuss basics, like what do we all mean with self-concepts or non-self-concepts, and what we really mean when we talk about maturation and healing. It's like we seem to share some territory, otherwise we wouldn't be here. So we should really take the chance to explore that together.

[20:12]

Can I ask a question? It's just a matter of going in a different direction, what you say. But what I've developed from what we've talked about today, when you say, the greatest life and lay life That raises a question for me, whether we, in our work, how can we see things that normal people do not see? Which also means that we are a special kind of people. And that this also gives us something for our practice. I'd like to refer to the distinction you made before between lay life and monastic life. And I would like to point out that we as therapists are kind of allowed or are in the situation where we can see things ordinary people can't see.

[21:19]

So we lead a kind of special lay life. So I would like to discuss that and how this results in our work and practice. It's the original sin of the therapeutic profession. Well, I mean, one reason I'm committed to adept lay practice is because it's something that distinguishes the 20th century is that there's people with the time, sophistication and so forth to actually do adept practice in a lay context and it's never been possible really before in society. All right, I agree with everything everyone said. Now, how do we implement it? with the chance to clear the dark point, the need of the patient.

[22:39]

For your question, how can you combine the psychotherapeutic based reputation with the Buddhistic, semi-Buddhistic, philosophical approach to life? You can only talk about it if you start from the bed and say, what does he want? And then you try to work out which elements of the two should be used. At the end of the day, the patient will be happy. What about starting with the need of the therapist? Because we're here.

[23:54]

And also, I think what is bringing us together in some ways is that all of us have found that both psychotherapy and meditation have been beneficial to us. So, because in a way we're talking about the practice As we talk about Zen practice, we're talking about the practice of psychotherapy, not as a client relationship specifically, but as a practice of your own practice of understanding yourself. Is that, yeah? My own feeling about psychotherapy has been that while there is a developed way of seeing the world in psychotherapy in different schools,

[25:30]

It actually brings something new into the situation that wasn't in Buddhism. But on the whole, the mindology and the techniques of Buddhism are far more developed than psychotherapy. That's my impression. But I think that can be a kind of delusion. I mean, you can emphasize that too much and not see something else. I also feel that the worldview... of psychotherapy could be better developed and is not accurate sometimes, or in general is not accurate, I think.

[26:38]

But I separate that from the practice of psychotherapy, and that is an interactive teaching. I'm responding a bit to what Martin said. When I was studying psychology, it was like id, ego, and superego, which is a pretty simple Victorian family fighting with each other. And they never quite get it together. But what I'm struck with in recent years, and particularly through the influence of Ulrike, And Martin, too, says how much more developed psychotherapy and psychology is than when I was studying it 30 years ago or 40 years ago, 35 years ago.

[27:47]

In addition to that, what do you expect? I mean, psychology is only 100 years old or so. But in addition, I feel that the Western person needs something like psychotherapy, which Buddhism doesn't supply. So I feel that not only can Buddhism learn from psychotherapy and psychology, but also the processes psychotherapy developed are necessary for the kind of people we are. But I don't know quite how to put these together. First of all, I would try to develop something where we have a common way of thinking about things. and sometimes though I'm not saying we should meet in small groups as you suggested or perhaps meeting without me because together you might say okay well we all agree on this but we don't agree on this and what makes sense here and come up with something quite specific we could talk about

[29:32]

I think it's important for therapists to have some experience of developing their own mind. Because I think the most important part in therapy is when the patient needs the mind to help him. There's an exchange of... And how would you suggest developing the mind of the therapist? But you also have to develop the story of the therapist. So would it be good if you met this evening without me? Yes? No? Not necessary. So Martin, you suggested looking at self and concepts of self and so forth.

[30:50]

I mean, that must be central to psyche, soul, psychology, and so forth. Could we take that as a theme? Would that be a good theme to discuss tomorrow? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So in other words... Would it help? Can you tell me what you're saying? I said I feel, Martin asked me what I would like to say, to do, and I said I feel a certain kind of getting tired from translating and being, and since there's a lot that's been brought across from you, so I would like to actually get into a process of digesting a little bit what we did together today.

[32:14]

And that goes a little bit into the direction with Andrea. Now, how do you... How would you suggest we do this, get into more of an interactive process together? I think actually I would like to have one opportunity to meet in small groups and just to, even though you can always do this without Richard, but to just feel more what's going on to do that at some point. So I'd like to do a little more sitting. At least what I've done in seminars, sometimes it is broken up into small groups, and sometimes when people have the support of each other and they notice how they understand something together, often something more specific is brought into the discussion.

[33:18]

Well, let's not try to make a decision right now. Also, for me, it would be good if we, if I could hear from you or from various of you what you mean by self or ego or etc. How you identify it or feel about it or what you mean by it. Yeah. Okay, so why don't we, we're supposed to stop in 15 minutes, so why don't we sit now. Gerald? Gerald? What are my instructions for today? Yeah, I said last night you were going to figure out what I should do today or what we should do. Well, you're the organizer. You decide. Well, people would like to hear something about what has come up.

[34:27]

And maybe they can take this as a base for a discussion. Good. Because we only have this morning. Yeah. Because we'll stop at one and then have lunch and disappear at two, right? Or something like that. Are one or two people staying through the week? You are? And you are? Oh, great. So, Ulrike, could you tell us something about the Fabs Gondas? Yeah, I'll try. Do you mind my wearing my Buddhist thing?

[35:40]

Yes. I don't want to be a Buddhist in this group. Oh, she tells me I don't write clearly enough. I almost started talking in English. It's a Sanskrit expression that is translated into German. You could say it's for groups or gatherings. These five groups form Buddhism, which is generally understood as personality or self.

[36:44]

This is one concept. On the other hand, you can basically explain everything through these five groups or attachments, everything that we are standing for, taste, experience, experience. On the one hand, basically a concept and conclusion, on the other hand, a description of the perception process. I have a question for you. What is the meaning of the phrase self-assertion or self-assertion? If we say self-assertion, then we are looking from our side. You have to say it equivalently. So the emphasis is always on, so I just looked it up again in the conservatory, so that it doesn't look like it's supposed to look like there's a self-understanding somewhere. And so I will explain the five standards in the sense of self and personality and simply describe it from a man's point of view.

[38:04]

Because that's the way I understood the standard and I also understood it in my practice. And the first standard is not necessary. And write down in the back if you have anything to add. Form or you could also write down the physicality of all the elements. Both in the same direction. Third, construction. It begins in pull.

[39:09]

Bewusstsein. What is at the very beginning of a perception process? then this is certainly a signal that the spirit takes over our senses. And here we have to pay attention to the term perception, because the moment we come into contact with a signal, it is basically not perception. It is actually an exception, an exception of the signal.

[40:18]

And this signal is received channel-specific, according to the sense wave. It can be a sound, a calm signal, a tasteful, a visual signal. As long as you are not yet aware of which canals you are in, you are not yet aware of which canals you are in. And behind that is where you are not yet aware of which canals you are in.

[41:25]

And behind that is where you are not yet aware of which What is a little difficult, whether in the skandhas or in the explanations of the skandhas, is that at least to explain what a chronological sequence is. In Buddhism, Of course, spiritual changes are often six or seven, because the spirit is also called a sensual change. And in parallel with the other sensual changes, for example, the spiritual change becomes a hidden self. And then we have the recording of this signal. Then we come to two other examples, because now the first reaction takes place in the work, in the singing, and the result is first two tones.

[42:29]

Is the sitting pleasant or unpleasant or awkward? So it is often described in literature. And in this context, we also have these incompatible conditions, which I spoke about yesterday, which of course are not tangible, but which you can simply perceive here on this level, without having a cognitive or conscious connection. So up to this point, we are basically on a pre-conceptual or pre-cognitive level. What is Phosphor?

[43:36]

Long grass. The third skandha here is basically circular. That's why we have to pay attention to the concept of awareness. There is also the biggest confusion with the skandhas, that one says, I will first take the form.

[44:38]

Suddenly the skandha appears to be awareness. So this is a kind of panic, because it really takes place in the unfathomable, unfathomable. And here suddenly we really have the perception, in the actual sense, that now certain mental processes are added, or we could say cognitive processes, a perception process in the natural scientific sense. So if I now have a tone, then it is now given to me, maybe here, the second scandal, and suddenly I realize, aha, that belongs to this theme. So here again, then there is my... The order. No, exactly. The order. This process, of course, goes on because all kinds of psychological activity in the brain can start after cognition.

[45:56]

Insofar kann man hier aber nicht sagen, wir setzen jetzt psychische Warnkosten ein. Das ist auch die direkte Übersetzung von dem Sanskrit, was man in Deutsch hat, was für psychische Warnkräfte zutreten. Im präsenten Dismus wird eine psychische Warnkraft nämlich gepult. That's why it's often referred to directly as a good thing. And with that, I mean the majority of all psychotic activities are first of all associated with hormones that can break in here. Absicht, Rangrücksempuls, und so weiter.

[47:08]

Emotions... Emotions... Emotions... If I have a feeling in my inner mind, for example, I have this feeling that I am now trying to get rid of anger as jealousy, and if I don't want that in the future, then of course it is associated with psychological activities. Yes, I understand.

[48:27]

I understand. Is that the topic? No, that's the third step. But if suddenly, at the same time, or shortly afterwards, you think, aha, I've been beaten in my hand, or with my hand I can do something wrong, then it's a game. Then something goes wrong. But I would like to ask about the emotion again. An emotion that is a little unconscious is not necessarily not tangible. Still, there is something tangible there, even if it is unconscious, for example, said down. And I don't know if in your category an emotion comes unconsciously.

[49:31]

So I would say, in your case, there is always something conscious or something that comes out of this, let's say, unimaginable layer. Yes. As an auspensive training, the emotion belongs in the realm of perception, in the realm of longing. No, I don't want to. It's the first one. So when it's burnt, it's burnt. All non-conscious processes, they're more internal. When a lyric is finished, others will try to put the dialect of it. And I'll sit there and just try to... So, the fifth skandal, that's where consciousness comes in, and that's now, this is where consciousness comes into being.

[50:53]

Consciousness and If you practice with the Ganges, you try to go backwards in the whole process.

[52:04]

You try to expand the plan step by step, to open up the whole process. And just to come back to the form, we have a so-called unconscious consciousness, or a non-practical consciousness, with this form. So here we have... So 1 or 0? Yes. What is 1 or 0? I would say... Well, by the penultimate of the last... Let's do it. Let's do it. Yes, but most of the time we live in a way that this process takes its toll on us.

[53:07]

And we don't even know how it works. Through the meditation practice, Because of this whole process of perception, people are becoming more and more alienated from the book. And also, for example, the answer to Koans. into the living. And this is also the part where the consciousness flies into this dimension. And so we can see it on the one hand, this is a gradual growth in both directions and a comparable process. For example, if you are in a relationship with the stardust, I don't know if it's algebraic, but when I work with it, I also jump into the stardust. So it can be that I go from here to here, or from here to here.

[54:14]

How would rain work be to you? I mean, it's called therapy. Yes, it can also be consciousness. to know where my hand is, where my foot is, or to be focused, for example, on developing my foot. I think it would be nice to meet you everywhere. In a purely physical way, it all works out. What we mean here with consciousness is that it was created in the ear field, in the eye field, in the spiritual field. The signal or the form can have been a spiritual impulse in the beginning. It doesn't come from the outside, but from within. In this respect, we cannot explain everything with this scheme. The wage process, the metal process, the sum of all these processes, are based on our personality. I am just asking if that is also a way of life. I would say that different therapies now have their focus in different standards.

[55:22]

So, for example, the French analysis is certainly very strong here, while the cadre work is certainly more here. But we certainly can't say that it's just here now. If I can give you a short example, I personally have no other work. Let's take something that is very vivid in my memory. One morning I woke up, it was at the beginning of the Swiss-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German-German- I was quite frustrated with these five scandals, and I said to myself, give me a practical example, you all have a pillow and do this all the time, but I can't imagine it now.

[56:27]

And it went through my head, and the next morning I woke up and noticed that I was clearly here. Sometimes you just feel, you don't know what it is, how it is for you, where you are, And you know, there's something there. And then I sat down on the small table and tried to just start this process, to go all the way in there. Then I turned my eyes to the garden and tried to go back into the form. Then I turned my eyes, not so focused, just cut something. And suddenly there was a tree there. And it was really the pure perception of this tree. And suddenly I realize, I am here. I see in this tree, and it is now remarkable that he wrote it like that, that where I ran off into the wilderness, I see the face of my grandmother.

[57:36]

And at that moment, when I see the face of my grandmother, I am already prompted that a lot of associations arise, tears, where I suddenly realize, aha, this feeling with which I woke up has something to do with it. Yes, I have to be reconciled. I lack something that is great-grandmotherly. in my life around me. And that was so amazing. When I suddenly woke up, where I was able to get out of this diffuse feeling, and in the very worst case, I jumped through this process of thinking, what will I do? And I think we could just try to move the skyline, and there is also a huge gate here, and so on, yes, to play with it. You wrote that the tree and the big tree could be in one, which is actually not possible, so that they could be in one.

[58:51]

Did you have to move them on the level of Fiegl or on the level of Faun, so that they could be in one? Yes, yes. So should we take a break now? No. No? Want to keep going? OK. Now, I have no idea what you said. Did you use the example? We need a translator. Huh? We need a translator. Yeah. Did you use the example of hearing something, a radio or something like that? No. So I'll try to use a non... Keep the German in one color and some...

[59:55]

Again, I'm overlapping and going too much on what you said. The thing about, for most of us, most of us are just here. We're in consciousness. We don't have much sense of the constituents of consciousness. Shall I translate? Well, we thought I'd do my jump and you do your English bit or something. Okay. So for most of us, we're just here. So the question is, how do you slow down this so you can begin to see everything? Again, these are boundaries between clouds. And you could, when Westerners do a Japanese calligraphy, or try to, they often sort of make it a circle.

[61:07]

They make a line, right? But if you know anything about Japanese-Chinese calligraphy, everything is in little parts. Like I was saying, you'd lift something. So this is one motion, putting it down. Starting to move is another motion. Moving is another motion. Stopping is a motion. Lifting off is a motion. So actually even a single line is made of one, two, three, four, five. And even the way you lift off can be different. You can lift off turning brush, you can lift off quickly. So there's four or five parts in even a single line. But it's still a single line. So in that sense, How do you look at something? Well, we make some distinctions. These distinctions are, in some sense, this harder trick. You can make your own distinction. These are not things.

[62:09]

This is a way of looking at how do we arrive at consciousness. Am I English? Am I going slow enough or fast enough? Okay. So... So the process of this in practice, and I think this as a psychological tool, is slowing down this process. Now, how do you see this process and slow it down? You have to get so that you can rest at each step. So you have to see each step and put it together. the easiest to get, is say that we're sitting in this room and somebody's walking through the woods out here and they're humming or something. And we're listening to a radio from the city, can't agree, but they're humming. And you don't even notice that you've heard something.

[63:12]

But something happens. That's the level of signal. You just get, but you haven't grasped it as a perception yet. Then you start feeling, you notice there's a feeling, you don't know what the feeling is. It's a non-graspable level. And then you say, oh, that's such and such a soul. Oh, Peter's a sweetheart. Yes, lovely day. Yes, lovely day. Maybe here's some song. And so you say, oh, yes. At that point, there's a perception. And then you say, oh, yes. Oh, my mother used to sing. My father loved her. Oh, yes. and all the associations come in of seeing your mother crying and asking you to turn off the radio.

[64:19]

So, then you have all the associations. At that point, you have a conscience. Do you see the pattern? So, what you're doing when you're practicing this is you're attempting to, in a sense, by no sin-ness, by practicing, seeing if you just have bare attention, or just noticing without feeling a perception, you're starting here, and you're moving in this direction. And you begin to experience consciousness, how consciousness is put together. Yes? You see, at that point, you have consciousness. So as it would mean for consciousness, would just only include the process going from one... That's right. This is a particular kind of consciousness, meaning consciousness created by this. See, there's many kinds of consciousness.

[65:23]

This is defined as consciousness loaded with these things. So there's nothing special between five and four. Oh, yes. It's one, two, three as well. Yes, just the associations don't create consciousness. From here you have all of the sense fields, the vijnanas are here, because you have the feeling, I mean, the field of taste. Right now I'm talking to you, there's a feeling in my mouth. My speech has a feeling in my mouth. There's a wetness in my mouth. There's a consciousness associated with the mouth that's not just tasting. Okay, so all the fields of consciousness, proprioceptive, mouth, eyes, etc., come in at this point, and these go together to awaken those fields in a certain way, and we call that consciousness. Okay, does that make sense?

[66:26]

Yeah. But you also have to remember that the Buddhist way of looking at these things, this includes everything. There's nothing that's not included in here. So she can think of anything, at least to fit it in somewhere here, or create a new system. Yes? In your sense, five would be something special, but when you make a circle around one to four, it would write consciousness, can you say? One to four, but one to four... Consciousness requires the field of consciousness. In other words, a field is generated through this. So if you just stopped here, you'd have a combination of these things, but not exactly conscious. Again, these are kind of, again, these are drawing lines on cloths. Yes. There's the addition of one towards mobilization.

[67:27]

Well, each thing adds its own part. So this is more than the addition of one and four, because it's also made up all the sense fields. The condition of this is the sense, the condition of this is the ability to have consciousness. And once you have consciousness, you have a situation where there are many also coming in. So this one we're talking about the associations that arise from this perception. up. So this is an analysis here, but you have hundreds of bias dynamics coming into consciousness. Consciousness is made up of lots of, this just deals with one perception and its association. You have one perception, association, all leading into this. I'll see if it works. It's problematic. It's problematic. One of the techniques, a very useful technique, and again, I would think it would be a useful technique in psychotherapy, is getting people to see the truth of an event.

[68:44]

Because people say, I'm depressed. Actually, there's a topography demonstration. They feel more depressed, they notice they're depressed at a certain point, they didn't notice it happen anymore. How do you notice exactly when you're stuck and depressed, or how do you notice exactly when you get a headache? If you can notice it, you saw a man walk by with a green coat, I don't know, it's hard to notice, or something happened, you know, he typed up in the shoulders, I don't know. But we can't notice those triggers because function is always in the past. When you're going this way, you're going back into the present. By the time I recognized that song was a song my mother listened to. I've got lots of other impulses coming in.

[69:49]

Well, it's connected with the previous experience. Yes, it's connected with all kinds of previous experience, etc. And I don't recognize that I had a moment I heard that song. Because the song is, in a sense, the absolute present. This is where the absolute present is. Here, he spoke through a period of time. So when you say, in the present in Buddhism, first of all, there's no actually such thing as the present. There's only presence. If you analyze a physical thing, as I talked about this last night, there is no, even in physics, there's no such thing as the present. There is the sensation of the present because we have a cognitive sense field that has photons and light at both ends of the lagoon. But there's a present. The word dharma means the holy. If everything's changing, man, you stay fixed on showing this non-beingness.

[70:54]

Dharma means to hold things for a moment, which gives us a sensation of the present, a sensation of states of being and non-self constant change. Okay, so Dharma is to hold things for a moment so we have a sense of our existence. So the question is, how do you hold things for a moment? And this gets into the Buddhist definition, functional definition of self, because self is what holds things for long. Am I going too fast? I'd like to... I'm okay. Diamond is also a hope sign for what? For what would... Diamond means hope. Everything changes.

[71:58]

The word dharma means to stop things for a moment. The reality is not greifable, but we grasp it for a moment. And we grasp it for a moment by drawing lines in emptiness. So the question comes to me, where do you draw those lines in that? And come up, you know, I could take this thing and say, okay, I've nailed this up, and the nails stick there, and the thing hangs there. But Cohen, I think Heidelberg, says, Vimalakirti, Manjushri, if you want to mention, Manjushri didn't even have a nail, didn't even have a nail in the wall to put it in. And Vimalakirti didn't even have to put the non-nail into it.

[72:59]

No, no, no, no. Okay. So what did you want me to go back on? What do you make of this present and present? There is, technically speaking, in reality, there is no present. Well, you could say there's one minute to twelve. There's half a second to twelve. But we, for a moment, we hold the present.

[74:20]

And this is a way of holding how we arrive. Dharma is a way of understanding self as a momentary holding without permanence or inherency. I'll get to that at the end. So, what you do with your practicing, is you use some example like hearing a radio, hearing a song, etc., to give people a sense of where the boundaries are. And then people practice it.

[75:36]

And you practice it and you're sitting in a park bench and you practice it at the breakfast table in the morning looking at flowers. And this relates to practice of direct perception where you just look at sun And you notice one form of perception is to look at something and go two to five percent So you look at those beautiful flowers. As much as possible, you try to let them just appear to you without formatting. You look at them with a sense of being able to peel an eight off. And actually, as I've said, physiological changes go with the state of mind that peels the names off.

[76:44]

Then after a while, you let a feeling come in. You let the flower give you a feeling of The pink flower and the purple flower give you a feeling. The branches give you a feeling. So at this point, At form, you're attempting to have no distinction. At feeling, you allow a certain amount of distinctions to come into truth, this one, that one, but no comparisons. Then you try to rest at that point. Then you begin to allow yourself emotions about it.

[77:56]

Or perceptions. These are such and such power. I like the blue vase. And at this point, too, then other perceptions of flowers can start to come in. And so forth, and then you move into this. Okay, then you look at the consciousness that arises from that process. And I guarantee you, you'll have a different consciousness than you started. So just by this little practice, you've taken consciousness a little bit out of what you woke up in your days of mourning, conceptual consciousness of your story, taken it out a little bit and rooted it in the present.

[79:19]

You've rooted it in the presence of the present. So, yeah, the roots that lead into our story and the but conceptual consciousness remain in there. But maybe we can imagine these roots are in dirt. And through the practice of direct perception in the five standards, you begin to root some roots for your state of mind in water. They begin to nourish your consciousness through the presence of the presence rather than just through your past and anticipated being.

[80:20]

Does that make sense? Okay, so that immediately, from a Buddhist point of view, is just therapeutic. Because you're more nourishing, in a sense, coming into your consciousness where you live and swim. Okay, now... Once you've gotten so you can go through this, what you're doing is still quite a crack. You then revert the arrow and go the other direction.

[81:29]

And you practice more obviously. When you're sitting, say, you notice the consciousness you have. Man sitzt also da und praktiziert und bemerkt den Bewusstseinszustand, den man hat. And that means, whatever you say in mind is, you begin to follow the roots of it. How did that headache arise? How did that thought arise? And by doing that, you begin to be able to go at least back into this level. That almost immediately happens when you start sasing. Because as I said, consciousness, I would count to ten, but as soon as you take consciousness away, the structure of consciousness, you're here.

[82:34]

associations start flooding you and you don't know how to count to ten. So again, in a relationship with a client, a client can learn to stay in this point. they can observe their association much more clearly. Okay. Now, another example, when people get drunk, for instance, they often become very emotional. And they sometimes behave in non-socialized ways.

[83:42]

And that's partly because our consciousness is educated and socialized and our emotions are partially educated and socialized. Emotionally, we're a bit wilder than we are consciously. Okay, so when you do that, you can go back into this stage of being just emotional and you realize that you have an identity that's emotional. That's different from the identity here. So this is understood as creating a consciousness that where we experience our usual debt. But it hides from us other levels of our identity.

[84:55]

So when you go backwards, you see that there's a sense of a vertical identity this way, but there's also a sense of horizontal identity this way. In other words, let's go to this level of feeling. You have lots of feelings that have occurred over years, but as soon as you translate them into perceptions, they're lost. At this level, sometimes like, say you're in a movie. And something happens in the movie and you burst into tears.

[85:57]

And tears are a way of thinking. And it's not clear what happened in the movie, because you kind of tuned out and you're like there, right? But that used to be a signal that... that some sort of compassion or level of feeling or very simple level of connectedness with people that you don't feel here, you suddenly feel in the movie because you disassociate in a certain way. Does that make sense at all? Okay, so what does that increase your intimacy with yourself? And you get so, you can rest at these points. And you're increasing your spot when you start the air of this one.

[87:11]

When you see the process this way, you're just noticing how this arrives. When you start going backwards, you're making yourself more subtle. Because this feeling level is very hard to notice because we have a habit energy that moves toward grasping and concept. We can move it next to the feeling level, which is a kind of samadhi and sadhana. When you start feeling the fields of consciousness, not the objects of consciousness, the objects of consciousness occur here. The fields of consciousness occur here. Then you begin to have the field of other people. And then a religious sense is illustrated by the nimbus or the aura.

[88:44]

Because you can start to feel the aura of another person. And that's highly evolved. in a person, and it's helped by other people, strangers, then this person mostly forms their identity. They reside here and sometimes use these. Yes. Would you agree that the first impression one gives to a person is the second? Oh yeah, but we ignore it. Yes, but that's the first impression. Yeah, and it's interesting because, you know, Pravati has some poems I like about it, where he says something like, you make plans, you do things,

[89:55]

And you have a sense of something happening, but you still make your plans, and something unexpected comes and swoops you down. What is the name of that? Kavati. Kavati has written a poem, that you make some plans, and have some plans, and you identify with them, and suddenly something comes, and it wipes everything off the table. Something is happening to us, We're getting information from other people, but we keep trying to make sense of the turn of our story and conceptual consciousness, etc. And then we notice what's happening too late because we keep trying to track our identity and perceptions here. When it's happening, we come back out. Do you want to translate that? You just want to smile a bit. What? That was a pretty long thing to translate.

[90:57]

Normalerweise... You know why it helped me to have a translator with you? We have a five-year-old one. Can you do it without me, please? No, I'll help you. Yeah, but actually, when I'm speaking English to people who are very fluent in English, I can feel them speaking to me as I'm speaking. As soon as you have to go through a process of hearing in English, listening to yourself, I stopped being able to hear you.

[92:10]

And then I started hearing myself and I started going faster. I didn't understand. When I... When non-fluent people are listening to English, they go through a process of hearing the English, which makes me unable to hear them understanding what I'm saying. So when I can't hear you, I tend to shift to hear it myself. But I actually don't hear you hearing my English. I hear you hearing Virginia. So actually what I say next in English is that my hearing, you hear Virginia. And I hear you. You know what I mean. That's right. Yeah.

[93:32]

It's not really an interruption when she translates, because it's more contact between all of us when she translates. Yeah, I know. And I said, I tried it a little bit, but I don't carry it out too well. And she's very good at telling me something. Don't you think? Yeah. Don't you think? Don't you think?

[93:56]

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