Does anyone else want to contribute to this discussion? Yes? So if I would have to locate myself at this scale of spectrum, on the one side monastic and on the other side of the spectrum lay practice, So I would be a Lele. Yeah, sounds like a song. Yeah. Although the connection to the monastic part of our Sangha was rather immediate and also very important to me.

[01:12]

and then there is also this issue that this experience of one experience of this deep winter practice was that I experienced myself much more as part of the Sangha and what I would like to add is that this aspect and there is another thing I would like to contribute that yesterday somehow it occurred to me this aspect of time this succession of the teaching by a succession of teachers and And you also said something yesterday about the responsibility of the Sangha for the continuation of the lineage.

[02:48]

And there is also this aspect that I now really feel a connection with Sukhiroshi and I can feel this connection. and at the moment I am exploring what it means this continuation of the lineage what does it really mean and how does it work yeah okay and you want to say something yeah I mean, there are so many things you could say, so this is almost an endless topic because it includes the entire practice. And although it is quite clear that you cannot separate content from form,

[04:08]

I think that we as a Sangha, we developed from just people who came together and practiced everywhere in Germany and Austria without having a practice place, without having a monastery. And it was only that several people came together and wanted to practice basically with you. And maybe somebody would like to translate. Christian, why don't you translate? Yeah? So our sangha started out with several people who came together who wanted to practice with Pekaroshi. Yeah, but I'll say it again. Who should translate it? I don't think he can remember it. And we didn't have a place.

[05:29]

We didn't have a monastery. But I think what was important for us was that we practiced with Pekaroshi. So I think there were three elements which were very important in that and which I think are still important and which are very important for me. The first thing is faith. So it's faith in their own practice. And it's faith in the teacher. And the second thing is this intention. Because I think we have this intention, and I think we still have it, that we want to realize or actualize this practice.

[06:32]

Yes. And also what you said yesterday in a horizontal and in a vertical lineage. So and the third thing is this friendship, this friendship. So a friendship we share in the sun. And I think this was there 22 years ago and continued through the time you are teaching in Europe. It started 28 years ago. Yeah, yeah. So these three things, they are there, they were there, and they are still there, but the forms, they changed.

[07:39]

And I think that the most important thing for me is to say with these three, the most important thing for me is to stay with these three things, with these three qualities. And naturally, I have to find also the physically formed and the physically placed practice. And which decision we will take will naturally affect how we develop as a Sangha. But I think we should take this decision very prudently and very cautiously. Because we shouldn't take a decision which somehow explodes the sun.

[09:03]

Because it might be too burdensome financially at once. But basically I think, and I will end with that, I think we should take care of these things of our intention, of our faith and of our faith. But in general, I think we should take care of these three things, for the trust, the intention and the will. I would like to continue with prudence and with cautiousness.

[10:04]

And for me the connection between lay practice, monastic practice, succession of the lineage and this Hotzenhaut project It is a very dense structure. Und immer mehr ergibt sich ein Gefühl, dass es hier ganz, ganz viele Ebenen übereinander gibt, die sich übereinander projizieren. And more and more I realize that there are so many layers in this topic which are somehow overlapping and also sometimes conflating.

[11:28]

So for me as an observer, it starts... it becomes transparent for me as an observer. And the reason for that could be twofold. First, it could be that I am too remote as an observer. And the other reason might be that it's really a complex issue. And my intention is also a rather condensed one. And that... comes from this idea that Dharma practice is a practice to perceive of life in units.

[12:48]

And I think these three topics we are dealing with here together and which seemingly are one unit or complex. So this density of this complex issue is a resource, a challenge, and... It's a challenge to take this complex and to watch the units, the singular units as units. And everyone can do that for themselves, and that can also be transparent, but I think that would be a next step to see if everyone does it for themselves or if it can be transparent and in the world.

[14:14]

Could you do that again? So whether this is now transparent, that these parts are also transparent and interchangeable, And we should decide for ourselves whether these different units can be communicated in a transparent way or between each other, or if each person has to look at these units individually. And I think that's even another topic, but I think it's not the primary topic. The primary topics. Fine, thanks. Anyone else want to say something? Yes. I think that lay practice and monastic practice are mutually dependent. and particularly in our Sangha I think the one doesn't exist without the other and also in the reverse that's the case because the monastic element is extremely important in my practice

[15:45]

Because it provides the opportunity for a special kind of practice. Because it provides the opportunity for a special kind of practice. which is very hard to, or almost impossible to accomplish in everyday life, because everyday life lacks the kind of silence and stillness I was able to experience in a monastery. And therefore in the monastery I am able to find or to establish a particular firmness in my practice which I am also able then to include in my everyday life.

[16:54]

Okay, go ahead. And I'm also experiencing that with Christian's visit. Where this firmness or stability is traveling to me and supports my own stability. And Christine yesterday gave birth to an idea In our small group? That not we, that there's not only an exchange between lay people and monasteries in one direction, but it becomes two-directional that people from the monastery might travel to city groups.

[18:04]

And also live with us for a while. and also live with us for a certain period of time. So a practice period in everyday life. Okay. Someone else? Anybody else? Yes, turn. I am still occupied with the teacher-student relationship you mentioned yesterday with using the example of Nakamura sensei. Yeah. Because you said she was taking on a teacher who knew less of no than she did.

[19:19]

And I'm asking myself, what are the qualities of a teacher-student relationship in Japan and also in this culture, because... Because it's clear to me I'm looking for a teacher. I would look for a teacher who possesses the qualities I'm lacking and I want to develop. So I would like to know... more about the qualities of the student-teacher relationship you were referring to with taking the example of Nakamura Sensei, because I cannot imagine, if you will interpret this, the benefit of that. Yes, so what is the quality of the relationship between the teacher and the student? So what is the difference between this kind of teacher-student relationship and my own European idea of teacher-student relationship?

[20:40]

Well, I think it would take quite a bit of time to discuss that in some sort of way. convincing detail. But it's basically a difference between content and role. And the simplest thing I can say about it is you don't want a terrible father or a terrible mother. But a pretty good mother or a pretty good father is better than none. Because the role itself has power. Yeah, so as I get older and older you're going to have to emphasize the role more and more. The more you become rich, the more you have to emphasize the role.

[22:01]

But, you know, I'm not dead yet. And look, Brother David's 85. I've got another 10 years if I'm as healthy as he is. So don't... I mean, the process of replacement is important, but it doesn't have to happen right away. Yeah. And life is fragile. Regina? I would wish for a kind of practice in the future. in which each individual person simply understands the process of practice well enough to create it himself.

[23:11]

would understand the process of practice well enough that it enables him or her to produce this by him or herself. And that you support each other and that you strengthen each other. and that practitioners would support each other mutually in this and by supporting each other would enforce this process. And this necessitates the existence of a monastery, although we have heard it can burn down at any moment, it might perish, nobody knows. I think that practice of meditation or meditative practice can also only be stabilized and realized when people are

[24:42]

when people really want to do it, when wanted. And what was written down in Koans, and when you look at it, which is rather... unbelievable or incredible, then I think this is only possible if each and everybody knows his role or her role and resides in his or her role and we are supporting each other in that.

[26:07]

Okay, so for me the role of teacher is you. I've been practicing long enough that I'm quite happy whatever I do. But if I have a teacher, my practice gets more interesting and deepens and so forth. And in my age and in this particular culture, which doesn't have too many teachers available, you're my teacher. But being, if I take... parallel what Eric said for me I came to Europe in 83 I didn't plan anything I just

[27:13]

was here. And people asked me to give talks often about things nothing to do with Buddhism. But since I don't know anything else, I started talking about Buddhism. And once I came to Europe, six times in two months. To do weekend seminars. And this seemed a little crazy. So somebody gave me a room where I could at least put my stuff. So I needed some kind of location to actually do this. And then we had Maria Locke and then for many years But I didn't do sashins because just being with you without doing sashins, you know, it was wonderful, but...

[28:41]

It was different. And I put off doing sashins because I knew once I did sashins, I could never leave Europe. Because... I can't bring people that deeply into practice and then abandon them. So there was always an institutional component in my coming to Europe. Either a room to put my stuff. And you know I tend to travel with quite a lot of stuff. Or the Haus der Stille, et cetera, for seminars and then Sashins. And then I resisted Ioannisov-type opportunities for

[29:51]

And I knew about Johannesburg for decades. two or more years before I would even look at it. So for me, my being here with you has a lot to do with institutional development. And the way I can be, have this ultimate friendship, which is what I consider practice. and the most fundamental friendship for me, more than social friendship, is if we have an institutional place where we can spend time together.

[31:06]

Now, for me, this decision is going to be made by the Sangha. It's not going to be made by me. And I think some people were sort of suspicious and thought that I was going to make this decision and tell everybody, well, we're doing it whether you like it or not. And I can understand your thinking. Because I've done it in the past. But I did it in the past when the nascent sangha needed somebody to show it where to go. Well, Sangha was too new to know what it needed.

[32:15]

Plus, philanthropy is different in America. Dann hinzu kommt noch, dass das Mäzenatentum in Amerika anders ausgestaltet ist als hier. I knew the inventor of xerography. Ich kannte den Affin, also denjenigen, der mit der Erfindung des Faxes verbunden war. I knew Chester Carlson. I knew Lawrence Rockefeller. I knew the owner of Fidelity Mutual Fund. So I knew that if we didn't raise the money, I could get the money. So if we couldn't raise the money, I would just say to Chester...

[33:23]

And he gave us $50,000 a year. $50,000 in those days was about $300,000 now, or $500,000 in the 60s. So Chester Carlson sent me $50,000 a year, about half a million. I could just do it. Now in Europe, first I don't speak German and I don't know Mr. Krups. And all I've got is you. Okay. All right, so, but by the way, I've never raised money from anyone with whom didn't have an interest in what was happening.

[34:42]

I've never raised money with somebody or asked anyone for money just because they had money. Okay, but... Those are factors which limit what I can do or what we can do. But now we have a mature Sangha and it's healthier for this Sangha to decide what to do than for me to decide for you. If I could, but I can't. So, my feeling is that this is a great opportunity to develop the Sangha. And if I'm not going to make the decision because I can't and I don't want to then the Sangha has to make the decision.

[36:12]

And we can't have Johanneshof make the decision because this is just a few people there. They simply should not and cannot make the decision for the whole Sangha. But we don't have a process for the whole Sangha to make the decision. And we've got in this voting yes or no I don't know, we've got, last I looked, it was about 120 yeses and 14 noes or something. And a lot of the yeses came with 1,000 euros. And plus we've had two 50,000 euro pledges. So maybe we get around 200,000 euros.

[37:25]

This is nowhere near enough for us to make the decision to do it. And you've spoken about it being a prudent decision and you've spoken about it being a prudent decision. I'm not a prudent person, but still we have to make a prudent decision. And what Rosa said earlier, if we have Crestone, we probably don't need I'm afraid I'm not that optimistic. I'm 99% convinced that as soon as I retire or perish, whichever comes first, there will be almost no connection to inquest and non-sense.

[38:55]

Because even now, with my being the teacher and being here six months, not too many people go with me to Creston. And it's okay, I guess, that I'm six months in one place and six months in the other. But that's really too much time away. I think it's important for the teacher not to be at the center all the time, but they ought to be there seven or eight or nine months. Ten months. And there are certainly people who could be head of both, but I don't think it would be a good idea. I wouldn't wish it on them. And even... And so there will certainly be two heads of the two centers.

[40:30]

Even for fully enlightened leaders, there's a little self-nature, and there might be a little competition between the two, and they might not want their students to go be with this guy who's in America or vice versa. I'm afraid that's the way it'll be. Yeah, and I see it in the States. Very few teachers send their students to anyone else. So, I mean, it won't be impossible, but it'll be much less likely than happens now, and it doesn't happen that much now. Now,

[41:41]

And let me say too, you know, I really think there's a difference and I have a strong feeling we should do it. But believe it or not, I don't care. Do I care whether we do it or not? I care whether you do it, but I don't care whether we do it. You know, the world's going to hell in a handbasket. the world is going to hell in a handbasket. My feeling that in 50 years there will be a third of the population in the world. Something like that. And I don't know.

[43:04]

If we're not smart enough to do it, what do I care? The evidence is we know everything we should know. No government is smart enough to do anything about what we need to do. That this teaching exists in this world, it's extremely important. So for me, you talk about it being difficult or transparent. For me, it's not difficult at all. And lay practice is what's easy, of course. All I have to do is announce that I'm going to be here. And you show up, this is easy. I have to be a little creative in trying to figure out how to express the practice but I don't have to convince ten of you to stay here with me for a year and that would be hard

[44:31]

Das wäre ziemlich schwierig. How to get fed, we're all going to sleep and not having arguments between each other and one doesn't like this person and they won't be in the kitchen with them. That's hard. This is easy. Here I am, and you're here, and what's fun? Okay. Okay, so what leads people, you all say, or many of you have said, that resources, that Johanneshoff and Crestone are resources for your own lay practice.

[45:45]

But somebody has to be there. If there's nobody there, you can't use it as a resource. Who the heck is going to be there? Every person who's made the decision to be at Crestone or Johanneshof for any length of time has made that decision in practice period. There's not one exception. You have to make the decision that there's no aspect of lay life which is more important to you than taking care of the practice with others. Es muss für dich klar werden, dass es keinen Aspekt des Laienlebens gibt, der wichtiger ist als dich um die Praxis zu sorgen mit anderen.

[46:57]

Das Laienleben ist extrem interessant. Und es ist auch sehr befriedigend. And you're following the lineage of your parents and continuing the lineage in your children and so forth. Und ihr folgt die Linie eurer Eltern und setzt die Linie fort in euren Kindern und das ist sehr befriedigend. And you're doing the work of the world. Und ihr macht die Arbeit der Welt. Not too many people say that. it's more important to me to help people practice than to do that. And so far what I see with my own eyes is need those people to run the places. I've made that decision and that's why I'm sitting here. There is no aspect of lay life that is more important to me than to be here with you.

[48:00]

And that's why, to make it sure, that's why I have no health insurance, no income, no savings, no retirement. I'm at the mercy of my students. And that is also the reason why I have no health insurance, no pension insurance, no pension, no insurance, no savings. And I am completely delivered by the grace of my students. And I don't want it any other way. My life is pretty good, it's not bad, but I have put myself on the edge. Because I want it clear, I have no other alternatives but to practice with. weil ich es klar machen möchte, ich habe keine andere Alternative, als mit euch zu üben. Und jeder, der diese Entscheidung getroffen hat, And they've all made that in practice periods.

[49:25]

Usually after two or three practice periods, or four or five. So my opinion is, unless we have 90-day practice periods in Europe, there will not be the leadership of the Sangha and there will not be anyone living at Johanneshof. Okay, so I think we cannot do, as far as I'm concerned, as long as I'm alive, we will not do practice periods at Johanneshof. I will not do, excuse my language, the bullshit of six week practice periods where people don't even live together.

[50:27]

Und ich werde auch nicht diese Ausdrucksweise, diese Scheiße von Praxisperioden machen, die sechs Wochen dauern, wo die Leute nicht miteinander leben. Okay, so. We can only do practice periods when I feel we have sufficient facilities. And this was Tsukiroshi too. He would not do practice periods at Green Gulch or San Francisco. And I don't want to have any practice periods where the necessary facilities are not available. And that was also Tsukiroshi's view. He didn't have any practice periods Green Gulch could be used, but it would have to be developed very differently than it's presently developed. So we can do, I think, if we get Hudson Halls, I'm willing to try to see if we can make the facilities work where people stay there for three months without leaving.

[51:48]

And if we get Hudson Halls, then I would try to It's an experiment. I'm willing to try. And I think that's the only way we're going to have the leadership and the persons, the monastics, who keep a monastery going. And I think that's the only way we're going to have the leadership Some people have said to me, well, the Anasaf and Potsenholz and Hereschried, it's not Tassajara or Green Gulch or... And some people said to me, so Hotzenholz, Johanneshof and Herrschried, these are not all words like the Sahara, Green Gorge.

[52:56]

Well, if that's our standard, we have to give up. Green Gulch is simply probably the most beautiful valley on the entire California coast. Tassajara is probably the most remote place in all of America. In the middle of 300,000 acres of wilderness. And the only place that's anywhere near as mountainous and remote and beautiful as Crestone in the United States is the Grand Tetons. And that's where Harrison Ford and the Rockefellers have their ranches. Okay, so we're not going to find places like that. Maybe Siberia for deep winter practice.

[53:59]

Um... Vielleicht finden wir einen ähnlichen Ort, vielleicht in Sibirien, für die Deep Winter Practice. So, Christoph, I mean, Johannesoth and Hotzenholzer, about as remote as we're going to get in Germany and Austria. I mean, maybe in the mountains in Switzerland you can help me find something. Austria, okay. So, why do I say it's easy? Well, we're either going to get enough money, raise enough money, to do it in a way that we don't have a burdensome And we're going to have to have a good situation with Wolfram Graubner so that if we couldn't fulfill it, we won't lose Janisov.

[55:30]

But I will not go ahead if it's going to be financially burdensome. So in the next months, we're either going to raise the money or not. And if we're not, we'll forget about it. It's no problem for me to forget about it. But I'm not sure I'm going to miss lunch. Watch. What? Twenty past what? Twelve. Twelve? Oh, that's not bad at all. Yes, Christine?

[56:33]

It's interesting for me that it's a financial question. It's only a financial question as far as I'm concerned. I don't think that it's a financial question only. And if it's only a financial question, I would like to know why the price is exactly 1 million euro and why it's fixed. Because I'm convinced that it's worth 3 or 4 million. If we've got 250,000, right? So if the price would be 500,000, then we would have a half. Yes. If it's only a financial question, then it must be allowed to discuss the price of the building.

[57:48]

Well, I've discussed it a little bit. And it's very clear that he can't sell it as it is for a million. But if it were your property, and I thought it was worth that much to you, I wouldn't bargain with you. That's not the way we sell property in Europe. But it's the way I buy property. But we are buying it. Then you go bargain with him. If you give permission?

[58:51]

Sure. Natürlich. My feeling is we have to do this in a way that's fair to him and fair to us. And I'm not a person who goes for the lowest price, I go for the fairest price. And I've often paid more than I had to, but in this case it's not more. I think we all agree that we want to pay a fair price. But it's also a matter of what we can afford, what we can pay. Well, if we get to the point where we can only raise 750,000 euros, say, with bank loans, I might go to him and say, that's all we can do.

[59:58]

Okay. Take it or leave it. If we get to the point where we say we want to buy it and we can only raise 750,000 euros, And Suzuki Roshi committed me to never buying a Buddha or never buying property for the center without your planning to have it forever. And without it being partly given to us. I know how much money we put into Johanneshof. And I know how much money, and I'm convinced that And I know that he's put at least three and a half million into that property.

[61:06]

And he has no plan to sell it. He might move into it if we don't buy it. He has no plan to sell it unless we buy it. So in the integrity of my relationship with him, which I've been planning to buy this property for 20 years, 15, anyway, is that he's offering us a very fair price. Okay, so, When we bought Tassajara, we bought it for $300,000 over 10 years with no interest. And Bob Dylan offered to buy it for us. And he wanted his own private place there.

[62:22]

And I said no. And... when we were in the final negotiations for buying Tassajara. Sunset Magazine wanted to buy Tassajara. And they would have paid a much higher price. So I said, well, if you want a businessman's price, we're not going to buy it. And at one in the morning, I called Suzuki Roshi up and said, we're not going to buy it. They want a businessman's price. We're not businessmen. And he said, fine. So I hung up, and I got my stuff and started out the door, and they said, okay, 300,000. So I'm willing to bargain.

[63:32]

I do think this is a fair price. But if we can't afford it, I'll make a take it or leave it offer. Okay. I would like to understand better why you think that Johanneshof is not a place where you do a practice period. And I have two questions. Do you think it's the size of the property or do you think it's the building? It's the size of the property. But couldn't we, also ich habe eine Frage, warum du glaubst, dass der Johannshof nicht ein Ort ist, wo man eine Praxisperiode machen kann? Ist es die Größe des Grundstücks oder ist es die Art, wie das Haus, die Struktur des Hauses? Und er sagt, es ist die Größe des Besitzes.

[64:35]

Because of the building ground or of the site? I just will not ask, while I'm the teacher, I will not ask you or you or you or you to be in the confines of Johanneshof and not leave for three months. I won't ask you to do that. After I'm gone, you can have somebody do a practice period and have the property if you want. Christian? Yeah. First, we are always talking about the price, the purchase price.

[65:47]

And everybody who knows the building also knows that it's completely inappropriate at its present shape to do any service except for owning it. That means that we have to take a lot and a lot and a lot of money in our hands to get it in the shape we would need? . And if the key question or the key trigger to all of that is whether it would enable us to have a practice period, so I'm asking myself, why don't we build a green field building?

[67:18]

We erect a Greenfield building just the way we did it. What's a Greenfield? On a Greenfield. We plan it. A new building. Oh, on the property. On our property, yes. Yes. And I think when we plan it for two-hour purposes, it would look, it could take any shape, but it would particularly, it would certainly not look like Graupner's Place. No, it wouldn't look like Graupner's Place, for sure. I'm sorry. Es würde ganz sicher nicht wie Graupner's Platz ausschauen, das ist ziemlich sicher. What would be the difference between not leaving the property of Johanneshof versus not leaving the property of Johanneshof plus then Otzenholz?

[68:37]

they are not they are separate properties yeah I know both places and I feel much more safe and protected in the Johanneshof area than in the Hotzenholz area which is so open in Harischried area So I understand that then the practice period could be made on the property of the now existing Johanneshof and on the Krapna place.

[69:48]

So it would be additional space. And we can make somewhat better housing for the people who will stay And I know people would stay longer if we had a little bit better housing. Well, this is just an aesthetic decision. But it's an aesthetic decision based on my experience over 50 years of practicing. And I can only pull rank here. Full rank is if somebody's a colonel, the general says, I'm a general. As was announced at this Zen Pioneers meeting, I've started and

[70:49]

and they still exist, more practice centers and good practice centers than any other person in Buddhism. So my experience tells me I can't do it at Yanisov, even with a building in the back. Und meine Erfahrung sagt mir, ich kann es nicht am Johanneshof tun, sogar mit einem Gebäude hinten. And I never would have started any of the centers, which if I'd worried about how we're going to get the money for the development. Und ich denke, ich hätte keines der Praxisorte jemals... If you don't own the land, you can't do anything. If you own the land, in a hundred years you can do something. So my feeling is, so far I've only been willing to start with

[72:06]

A roof and a bathroom. I did start with bare land in the Sierras. There was nothing there, but Gary Snyder and Alan Ginsberg and I bought the land together. And I got this place as an alternative to Tassajara. If Tassajara failed, we were going to move it to the Sierras. So I know how difficult it is and how much money it costs. It costs to start with bare land. Now, let's just take a modest proposal.

[73:29]

I could do a practice period, I anyway, and somebody else, if I'm the teacher, I could do a practice period of five or six people next year at Yanisov-Hotzenholz combination. Also, lasst mich einen bescheidenen Vorschlag machen. Ich könnte eine Praxisperiode leiten im nächsten Jahr von fünf oder sechs Leuten auf dem kombinierten Grund von Johanneshof und Trotzenholz. We put tens, I don't know how much, we put hundreds of thousands of euros into Johanneshof. Wir haben hunderttausende von Euros in den Johanneshof gesteckt. And it's happened over 15 or 17 years. And you do it if you have the money, you don't do it if you don't. And you develop the Sangha by doing it together. I know a number of rich people who just build Zendos, buy buildings, no one comes. It happens when a Sangha does it.

[74:46]

So this Sangha is going to make the decision to do it or not. And then we will start fixing up the building and you know, etc. And then we will start to repair the building and to build it up and so on. Like at Crestone, the main house was all built with volunteer labor. It's caused some problems. They put the pipes in the cement, and the pipes then there, and then we had to redo the plumbing. But, you know, so that... It gives us something to do. Okay, so I think we've talked about this enough, right?

[75:49]

Then not everyone's going to agree. When we started Johanneshof, quite a few people left because they didn't like that we weren't doing it ourselves the way we did it in Haus Destillo. So some people will leave. New people will come. And I hope none of you leave. But we haven't done it yet. We don't. I don't know if we're going to get the money.

[76:55]

I've been told that the only way we will get the money is for me to go individually to several people who probably could afford to give us the money. But at present I don't think I want to do that. Because it interferes with my practice relationship. And my practice relationship is more important than whether somebody supports me. And when I went to Crestone this last six months, I just forgot about Hudson Holtz and didn't answer the emails and didn't answer the letters.

[78:07]

And now I'm back. Now maybe I'll do something. I didn't answer any emails, I didn't take care of the hotel, I didn't answer any letters. And maybe now that I'm back, I'll start doing something. And we'll see if something materializes there. Thanks for your frank discussion. And I apologize for being rather obstinate. Is that a translation of obstinate? I would say yes. So I'm both of those words. Yes. But I am clear about what I think we should do. But I'm also... We don't do it fine. So let's sit for a minute and then have lunch.

[79:09]

And we have to decide how long lunch is and how long the break is and when we come back because we're supposed to end at four. At the latest. Now you tell me. And maybe we can have some different kind of discussion or practice or teachings after lunch. So think about it

[79:41]

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