So I wanted to speak this morning about how we continue and can we think about a curriculum. Marie-Louise has been speaking to me about it off and on for years. And Nico spoke to me about it. And others have spoken to me about it. Yeah, and I've always so far said, oh, you're crazy. I'm not going to develop a curriculum. You're crazy. I'm not going to develop a curriculum. Mm-hmm. Now, that's partly because, you know, I don't read German.

[01:07]

How the heck am I going to develop a curriculum in German? But also, my sense of what a curriculum is, is not easy to do. It's not a reading list. My friend Bill Thompson, who gave us Crestone, and who now has moved back to Creston. For, I don't know, five or six years, was paid $150,000 a year, something like that, to develop a curriculum, and that's all he did for a preparatory school in Long Island, a new preparatory school called the Ross School. For five or six years, Rupert Thompson was paid over $100,000 a year to develop a curriculum

[02:18]

Then he tried to publish his book as a curriculum, and the school sued him. It belongs to the school. You can't publish this curriculum. And my daughter Sally, teaching at a school called St. Julian's in Portugal, which is a British preparatory school, Thank you. Is the school from grade one to high school graduation, right? No. A preparatory school means preparatory for college, and it's almost always from about ninth grade or tenth grade Four years usually. It can be earlier, but classic preparatory school is four years before college.

[03:27]

The last four years before college. And Britain has a network of preparatory schools all over the world for diplomats and so forth and people who want to study in an English school. And they invited Sally to be on the International Curriculum Committee. And they flew, I don't know, ten or so people from around the world to a location three or four times a year to work on the curriculum. No, I'm only saying this because I think that the process of developing a curriculum will take some years.

[04:58]

So I wanted to speak this morning about how we continue and can we think about a curriculum. Today I want to talk about how we continue and if we can present a curriculum. Marie-Louise has been speaking to me about it off and on for years. And Nico spoke to me about it. And others have spoken to me about it. Yeah, and I've always so far said, oh, you're crazy. I'm not going to develop a curriculum. You're crazy. I'm not going to develop a curriculum. Mm-hmm. Now, that's partly because, you know, I don't read German.

[06:07]

How the heck am I going to develop a curriculum in German? But also, my sense of what a curriculum is is not easy to do. It's not a reading list. My friend Bill Thompson, who gave us Crestone, and who now has moved back to Creston. For, I don't know, five or six years, was paid $150,000 a year, something like that, to develop a curriculum. And that's all he did for a preparatory school in Long Island, a new preparatory school called the Ross School. For five or six years, Rupert Thompson was paid over $100,000 a year, exclusively to develop a curriculum

[07:18]

Then he tried to publish his book as a curriculum, and the school sued him. It belongs to the school. You can't publish this curriculum. And my daughter Sally, teaching at a school called St. Julian's in Portugal, which is a British preparatory school, Thank you. Is the school from grade one to high school graduation, right? No. A preparatory school means preparatory for college, and it's almost always from about ninth grade or tenth grade Four years usually. It can be earlier, but classic preparatory school is four years before college.

[08:27]

The last four years before college. Mm-hmm. And Britain has a network of preparatory schools all over the world. for diplomats and so forth, people who want to study in an English school. And they invited Sally to be on the international curriculum committee. And they flew, I don't know, ten or so people from around the world to a location three or four times a year to work on the curriculum. No, I'm only saying this because I think that the process of developing a curriculum will take some years.

[09:58]

But we start somewhere. Yeah. And if you read the history of universities, which is really about a curriculum, it's not so much a university, it's about what people should learn, what can be taught. I think in medieval European universities they had something called a trivillium, which is rhetoric, logic and I don't know, something. And they had a quadrivillium which was arithmetic and etc. And of course in Europe the universities were initially almost all came out of monasteries and particularly Irish monasteries. And then spread all over Europe. So I think that, first of all, we have a practical question of how do we continue the winter branches.

[11:20]

Now we have a larger question, which is, What should we really study to establish Buddhism in the West? What I imagine is we have a good start in over four or five years. we end up with something that makes sense. And the curriculum can be generally available to the Sangha, of course, but it would be specifically part of, but not the entirety of, the winter branches.

[12:31]

I promised I'd speak more clearly and loudly for you. Maybe you need one of those horns. I remember I found one in my grandmother's house belonging to my great grandfather. I used to go to the movies with it. Just to fool around. Serials, you know. Serials? You know, the course is going over the cliff, and then it stops, and then next week you see... I particularly like the Mark of Zorro. I tend to like things starting with a Z. Sorrow.

[13:44]

During the rest of the week my ears would ring. Anyway, okay. So one of the things Suki Roshi always emphasized is we should And to study Buddhism well, we should know our own culture as well. And you've heard me often say that I think Western lineages led us to practice more than Asian lineages. Er hat mich oft sagen hören, dass die westlichen Linien, also in diesem Fall Lehrlinien, uns mehr zur Praxis oder eher zur Praxis geführt haben als asiatische.

[14:46]

So if we develop a curriculum, I think that there should be a certain... We should start out with some relationship to West... Ich sage das vor allen Dingen deswegen, weil der Prozess ein Curriculum zu entwickeln Jahre brauchen wird. But we start somewhere. And if you read the history of universities, which is really about a curriculum, it's not so much a university, it's about what people should learn, what can be taught. I think in medieval European universities they had something called a trivillium, which is rhetoric, logic, and I don't know, something. And they had a quadrivillium which was arithmetic and etc.

[15:50]

And of course in Europe the universities were initially almost all came out of monasteries and particularly Irish monasteries. And then spread all over Europe. So I think that, first of all, we have a practical question of how do we continue the winter branches. Now we have a larger question, which is, What should we really study to establish Buddhism in the West? What I imagine is we have a good start in over four or five years. we end up with something that makes sense.

[17:01]

And the curriculum can be generally available to the Sangha, of course, but it would be specifically part of, but not the entirety of, winter branches. I promised I'd speak more clearly and loudly for you, and so... Maybe you need one of those horns. I remember I found one in my grandmother's house from, belonged to my great-grandfather or something.

[18:08]

I went, used to go to the movies with it just to fool around. These cereals, you know, cereals? Every, you know, the course is going over the cliff and then it stops and then next week you see the... I particularly like the Mark of Zorro. I tend to like things starting with a Z. Sorrow. During the rest of the week my ears would ring. Anyway, okay. So one of the things Suki Roshi always emphasized is we should And to study Buddhism well, we should know our own culture as well.

[19:18]

And you've heard me often say that I think Western lineages led us to practice more than Asian lineages. So if we develop a curriculum, I think that there should be a certain... We should start out with some relationship to... Western philosophers and others. And, you know, a few Bob Dylan songs, you know, things like that. I've always liked Dylan has a song where the moment of a sun-caught fly. I always thought that was a good definition of a Dharma.

[20:22]

Okay. So, you know, we should have Wittgenstein, maybe a little bit, Schopenhauer. Anyway, I don't know. I throw it out for any discussion from your comments. Yeah, we talked to her on the phone. That's great. A Japanese lady who knows Zen and Heidegger. This is good. Deutsch bitte. Entschuldigung. Eine japanische Dame, die Heidegger gut kennt. Ja. That's what I said.

[21:25]

That was a little misunderstanding what his teachings, what his contents are. Well... Not personally. No, no, no. She knows his work. Yeah, yeah. LAUGHTER LAUGHTER Well, you know, Heidegger, when he first encountered Zen, said, this is what I've been trying to say all along. I don't think he's right, but, you know, it's partly right. Okay, anyone else? Somebody, please. Yes. I think there's some art in it.

[22:31]

Art, oh. Yeah, it's Dutch art, particularly. Yeah, no, we have to... Yeah, sure. No, you have to, we have to bring in, of course... the practice and physical aspect of it. One side of the Zenda will be a mirror with a bar and do plies or I don't know. What about something like the text The Cloud of Unknowing? Sure, but we're not going to make the curriculum now. So you want a suggestion? No, just the idea about a curriculum, not suggestions about what should be on the curriculum. Okay. Can someone explain what's the curriculum at all?

[23:34]

I don't know. Lehrplan. Also Unterrichtsplan. Das ist Stoff. Konzept. A teacher who established himself in 1965-70, and the name pro-economist comes from that, because a course was something fixed before. And then they said, a teacher should always be renewing himself. And that's why we don't bring pedagogy to education science and always work on it. The term developed in 65, 70, which before the schedule was fixed, and it was then thought that it had to be sort of adaptive. It had to be adapting itself, and that's why the term curriculum and pedagogy appeared.

[24:37]

In Europe, in Germany. In Germany? Yeah. And the Pedagogic Street. After 68. American universities, the ones I'm familiar with at least, kind of redo their curriculum every... and others. And a few Bob Dylan songs, you know, things like that. I've always liked Dylan has a song where the moment of a sun-caught fly. I always thought that was a good definition of a Dharma. Okay. So, you know, we should have Wittgenstein, maybe a little bit, Schopenhauer. Anyway, I don't know.

[25:41]

I throw it out for any discussion from your comments. There's this Japanese lady on Hightech. Yeah, we talked to her on the phone. That's great. A Japanese lady who knows Zen and Heidegger. This is good. Deutsch, bitte. Entschuldigung. Eine japanische Dame, die Heidegger gut kennt. Ja. That's what I said. That was a little misunderstanding what his teachings, what his contents are. Well... Not personally.

[26:45]

No, no, no. She knows his work. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, Heidegger, when he first encountered Zen, said, this is what I've been trying to say all along. I don't think he's right, but, you know, it's partly right. Okay, anyone else? Somebody, please. Yes. Art? Oh. Yeah, it's Dutch art, particularly. Yeah, no, we have... Yeah, sure. No, we have to bring in, of course... The practice and physical aspect of it.

[27:55]

One side of the Zenda will be a mirror with a bar and do plies or I don't know. What about something like the text, The Cloud of Unknowing? Sure, but we're not going to make the curriculum now. But you want a suggestion? No, just the idea about a curriculum, not suggestions about what should be on the curriculum. Okay. Can someone explain what's the curriculum at all? I don't know. A curriculum. A curriculum. A curriculum. A curriculum that was established in 1965-70, and the name of the curriculum comes from there, because a curriculum was something fixed before. And then they said that the curriculum should always be renewing itself.

[29:01]

And that's why they didn't bring pedagogy to educational science and always work on it. The term developed in 65, 70, which before the schedule was fixed, and it was then thought that it had to be sort of adaptive. It had to be adapting itself, and that's why the term curriculum and pedagogy appeared. In Europe, in Germany. In Germany? Yeah. Sorry. Yeah, yeah. After 68. American universities, the ones I'm familiar with at least, kind of redo their curriculum every, I don't know, 10 years or so. And not because the subject matter changes, but because how you teach a new generation of students, it starts to be different.

[30:07]

American universities, as far as I know, change their curriculum every ten years. So I think we see what works if we do this. We see what works together. And, you know, we see if we add some one or two Western philosophers, if that helps or that just doesn't help. Or we add Freud, you know, I don't know. You know, we're not I refrained from, back in the 60s and 70s, from starting a Buddhist university.

[31:15]

I considered it, and I'd had some experience, because I was assistant head of engineering and science extension and liberal arts extension at the University of California. So my job was developing courses for engineers and scientists and people in liberal arts, the humanities, who had already finished university. And I don't know. Partly I didn't want to do that again and I didn't think the time was right. But at that time we did have the institutional opportunity and buildings and things like that, which we could have done it.

[32:30]

And Trungpa Rinpoche and also Trungpa Rinpoche Sangha did decide to do it. And of course Naropa, his school called Naropa, is across the street from the Boulder Zen Center. Dharma Sangha's Bed and Breakfast. Pension. And it's developed as a university accreditation It has university legal status.

[33:51]

And while it's nominally a Buddhist university, it teaches almost entirely psychology. Because that's what people want to learn. And that's a professional life they can have afterwards. There isn't much professional life for Buddhists. Yes, so we could ask, is there life after practice? What? Yeah. Yeah, we're all getting there. I mean, I'm getting there. I don't know, 10 years or so. And not because the subject matter changes, but because how you teach a new generation of students starts to be different. American universities, as far as I know, change their curricula every how many years?

[35:18]

Ten years, yes. No, about. About, about ten years. So I think we see what works if we do this. We see what works together and, you know, we see if we add some, one or two Western philosophers, if that helps or that just doesn't help or we add Freud, you know, I don't know. You know, I, we're not, I refrained from, back in the 60s and 70s, from starting a Buddhist university. I considered it, and I'd had some experience, because I was...

[36:19]

assistant head of engineering and science extension and liberal arts extension at the University of California. So my job was developing courses for engineers and scientists and people in liberal arts, the humanities, who had already finished university. And I don't know. I just didn't... Partly I didn't want to do that again and I didn't think... the time was ripe. But at that time we did have the institutional opportunity and buildings and things like that which we could have done it.

[37:30]

And Trungpa Rinpoche and Also, Trungpa Rinpoche's sangha did decide to do it. And, of course, Naropa, his school called Naropa, is across the street from the Boulder Zen Center Dharma Sangha's Bed and Breakfast. Pension. And it's developed as a university accreditation It has university legal status.

[38:51]

And while it's nominally a Buddhist university, it teaches almost entirely psychology. Because that's what people want to learn. And that's a professional life they can have afterwards. There isn't much professional life for Buddhists. Yes, so we could ask, is there life after practice? What? Yeah. Yeah, we're all getting there. I mean, I'm getting there. Well, they have something called U3A. which is an international movement, I believe, means university, third stage of life, academy or something like that.

[40:10]

And from what I've read, it's retired scholars, university people, who just study for the heck of it, no degrees are given. Sounds like us. Okay, so we're not starting a university here. We're not? Well, he must have studied rhetoric. As if that were a rhetorical question. But if we do develop a curriculum and we develop it over several years, what works together, it's actually the basis of a potential school if we ever want to do it.

[41:15]

What do we need to know to study Zen practice? Okay. Yes, Adine? I always ask myself, how can I help? I find if I just follow that, it leads someplace. And I guess through the years you can say, some call it Buddhism. And at the same time I get kind of nervous I have to see myself as Buddhist or something.

[42:20]

I like the friction you build into these days between the idea that we are not studying enough and finding ways to do it in practice. I also like the tension you created, hinting towards exclusion and yet not. Yeah, I'm a tough Zen teacher, but I'm only hinting at being tough. But I also would like to start somewhere where no one feels excluded, and so why not also start with a list of books or texts that has helped any one of us, or really struck something, and that could be poetry, it could be anything, and share that to start with.

[44:14]

That's a good idea. So who would volunteer to be on a curriculum committee? Well, that's the end of that idea. Okay, so that's a start. They have something called U3A. U3A. which is an international movement, I believe. I mean, it's university, third stage of life, academy, or something like that. And from what I've read, it's retired scholars, university people, who just study for the heck of it, no degrees are given.

[45:20]

Sounds like us. Okay, so we're not starting a university here. We're not? Well, he must have studied rhetoric. As if that were a rhetorical question. But if we do develop a curriculum and we develop it over several years, what works together, it's actually the basis of a potential school if we ever want to do it. What do we need to know to study Zen practice? Okay.

[46:47]

Yes, Adine? I always ask myself, how can I help? I find if I just follow that, it leads someplace. And I guess through the years you can say, some call it Buddhism. And at the same time I get kind of nervous when I have to see myself as Buddhist or something. Excuse me. I have been asking myself over the years how I can help, and I have been doing that all these years, but I get nervous, something like nervous when I see myself as a Buddhist. I like the friction you build into these days between the idea that we are not studying enough and finding ways to do it in practice.

[48:00]

I also like the tension you create in inting towards exclusion and yet not Yeah, I'm a tough sense teacher, but I'm only hinting at being tough. But I also would like to start somewhere where no one feels excluded, and so why not also start with a list of books or texts that has helped any one of us, or really struck something, and that could be poetry, it could be anything, and share that to start with.

[49:15]

That's a good idea. So who would volunteer to be on a curriculum committee? Well, that's the end of that idea. Okay, so that's a start. Okay. What's next? Okay. So I would think I would think that the first step would be to get everyone in the winter branches as a start anyway to send to some central place the five or ten books or something or five or ten whatever that have been useful to them and then we start sorting that out and see

[50:34]

Now, the Winter Branches includes people who aren't here who will meet at other times. Because they can't come this time, but they can come later. So we're going to have to find some way to have two curriculum committees, or maybe one, and we'll have work together. Okay. Gerald, you want to say something? There was an aspect how we can find support from outside. And there had been a study group with Kastanahashi where we sort of worked with the Gensokohan.

[51:37]

This group met two or three times and then broke off because there wasn't enough time for once and the group within Johanneshof wasn't stable enough to carry this on. So that would be a possibility, if we, for example, want to study a text very, very thoroughly, with the roots in, as Carstus offered, for example, in Chinese, Japanese and English, and that, so to speak, then So that we would like to study a text very thoroughly with its root in Chinese and Japanese and in English, then we could sort of build this into the curriculum and...

[53:01]

And Kars is, of course, a very busy man, many tasks, but he is such a splendid person and you can learn so much from him and it might be possible that he helped us. Yeah, practically speaking now, the whole group couldn't participate. So it would have to be a small group. And that small group would have to be able to meet regularly, and that small group would have to be able to pay his airfares on a regular basis from California. So there's some practical considerations there. It would be hard to... That was one reason why it broke. Yeah, hard to incorporate that into the winter branches. But to work with him is great. Yes? My question is that how can we include the people who are in Creston?

[54:11]

Forget about them. No. Really, this is another world here. I don't know. They're always asking me in Creston and in Boulder Can't we fly to Europe and join the winter branches? But how practically speaking are they going to do it? And ever since they heard about it, many people were asking me to start a similar program in America. But in America we have CRESTO, Mountain Zen Center. What's next? Okay. So I would think... I would think that the first step would be to get everyone in the winter branches, as a start anyway, to send to some central place...

[55:25]

the five or ten books or something, or five or ten whatever, that have been useful to them. And then we start sorting that out and see... Now, the Winter Branches includes people who aren't here, who will meet at other times, because they can't come this time, but they can come later. So we're going to have to find some way to have... two curriculum committees or maybe one and we'll have work together. Okay. Gerald, you want to say something? They would like an aspect how we can find support from outside.

[56:32]

And there had been a study group with Kars Tanahashi where we sort of worked with the Gensho Koan. This group met two or three times and then broke off because there wasn't enough time for once and the group within Johanneshof wasn't stable enough to carry this on. So that would be a possibility, if we want to study a text very thoroughly, with the roots in the Chinese, Japanese and English, for example.

[57:36]

And that, so to speak, then... so that we would like to study a text very thoroughly with its root in Chinese and Japanese and in English then we could sort of build this into the curriculum and Kars, glaube ich, ist natürlich sehr beschäftigt wer da eine And Kars is, of course, a very busy man, many tasks, but he's such a splendid person and you can learn so much from him and it might be possible that he helped us. Yeah. Practically speaking, though, the whole group couldn't participate, so it'd have to be a small group.

[58:36]

And that small group would have to be able to meet regularly. And that small group would have to be able to pay his airfares on a regular basis from California. So there's some practical considerations there. It would be hard to incorporate that into the winter branches. But to work with him is great. Yes? Yes. And my question is that how can we include the people who are in Creston? Forget about them. No. No. Really, this is another world here. I don't know. They're always asking me in Creston and in Boulder, can't we fly to Europe and join the winter branches? How practically speaking are they going to do it? And ever since they heard about it, many people are asking me to start a similar program in America.

[59:38]

But in America we have Crestone Mountain Zen Center. Yes. But we are bilingual and this is certainly something special about our Sangha. We're getting more bilingual. Yes. I think quite simply we should start. And we have actually already decided that. It is already on its way to a core group. And we hope that it is the right thing to do.

[60:41]

And we decided about that already. The nucleus of the group is already on its way. And we hope you agree. I agree. Good. In concrete terms, Nico and I have decided to organize it so that a study group is on its way. And you, Nico, and myself started organizing or formed a sort of little study group to get it on its way. Good. Provisionally to gather literature and a basis for studies. Okay. and to make proposals what could be possible study objects in the winter branches.

[61:42]

Actually, we would like to have said it at the work meeting. I'm beginning. We want to organize this over the Internet among us. Okay, good. I think it's good that we discuss it in general, but it's going to take a particular effort of a few people to put it together. Do you have something you'd like to add, Marie-Louise? Your hands are half up. All right. Yes. I would like to add that, of course, everyone is invited to join in this e-mail group and add.

[62:44]

Okay. So let's return. Yeah. I would like to add something to what Artine said. We would have a big pile of books that would have helped people. But besides that, I have a need to have something that would teach us to use the same language. I would like to add what Nadine said about these books, which helped people, but I would like also to make an effort to find us using the same language. I think we have developed the same language over the predecessors of Russian.

[63:47]

And I think we developed something like a similar common language over your lectures. Something like an idea of a common language. And I would like to suggest that one or two or three... And I would like to have something like one or two or three pieces which sort of are... Compulsive. Compulsive or obligatory. No, obligatory. Compulsory is the word. Compulsory. Expected. Yeah, for everyone. Compulsive, too, but... Compulsive, too, but... Obligatory, you would say? What do you say? Obligatory. Obligatory. No, you'd say compulsory if it's no choice, and expected if it's almost no choice.

[64:53]

Yeah, as well. Thank you. So, I'm in America, Hamburg, Preston Mountains and Center. Yes. But we are bilingual and this is certainly something special about our Sangha. We're getting more bilingual. Yes. I think quite simply we should start. And we have actually already decided that it is already on its way to a core group. And we hope that it is the right thing to do. And we decided upon that already. The nucleus of the group is already on its way. And we hope you agree. I agree. Good. In concrete terms, Nico and I have decided to organize it so that a study group can come on its way.

[65:58]

And Niko and myself started organizing or formed a sort of little study group to get it on its way. Good. Provisionally to gather literature and basis for studies. Okay. And to make proposals, what could be possible study objects in the winter branches? Actually, we would like to have said it at the work meeting. I'm beginning. We want to organize this over the Internet among us. Okay, good. I think it's good that we discuss it in general, but it's going to take a particular effort of a few people to put it together.

[67:21]

Do you have something you'd like to add, Marie-Louise? Your hands are half up. All right. Yes? I would like to add that, of course, everyone's invited to join in this e-mail group and add. Okay, so let's, we've done, yeah? I would like to add something to what Artine said. We would have a big pile of books that would have helped people. But besides that, I have a need to have something that would teach us to use the same language. I would like to add what Nadine said about these books, which helped people, but I would like also to make an effort to find us using the same language.

[68:39]

I think we have developed the same language over the predecessors of Russian. And I think we developed something like a similar common language over your lectures. Something like an idea of a common language. And I would like to suggest that there are one or two or three smaller, larger things that are binding for everyone to read. And I would like to have something like one or two or three pieces which sort of are... Compulsive. Compulsive or obligatory. No, obligatory. Compulsory is the word. Compulsory. Expected. Yeah, for everyone. Compulsive too, but... Compulsive too, but... Obligatory, I would say.

[69:42]

What do you say? Obligatory. Obligatory. No, you'd say compulsory, if it's no choice, and expected, if it's almost no choice. Yes, so one or two books or larger texts, so that they all have to be translated into the same length of text. One or two books or texts so that everyone is sort of at the same level with this or these texts. Yeah. Well, I would say that it ought to... Probably there ought to be a... This isn't exactly what you said, but there ought to be a list of some, a few English books that... aren't available in German, and people who know English well enough could study them too. It ought to be a kind of additional list, I think, if we do have a book list.

[70:42]

And probably there could be, in addition to Zen Mind and Beginner's Mind, there could be a few transcripts of Sukershi's lectures and there might be a few transcripts of some four or five lectures that might be important to be familiar with. Marie-Louise? I personally like this idea because it makes me happy, too, because I thought this should happen one day, and I've been thinking it will help me if I get compulsory texts. A compulsive person gets compulsory texts. No reference to you.

[71:43]

But I have really a question. Maybe this is not very perfect, but I wonder why Frank, Ottmar, David have no comment to this. Maybe they are very surprised. This is the silent corner over here. Well, there is a wake-up bell every morning, and then we start singing, and pretty soon there's a hum, and then we go to sleep, and then there is sochi, and OUP breakfast, and a work meeting, and then there's lots of work to do, and then hopefully we get a one-and-a-half-hour break, and then the whole stuff starts again in the evening. We end with sitting, and then I try to read, and then I fall asleep after a half-page, and that's it. That's your curriculum. That's my curriculum. It's one I commend, so we can put that on the list. Yeah, I have somewhat similar problem.

[72:46]

I have had to learn to read real essential little parts. Yeah. Yeah, I love to read and to study. And I'm really happy that this is going on here, and I think it's useful to have a kind of structure for these winter branches when they should make sense. We could call it the bud list. The bud list. Shall we translate? Yeah, go ahead. I can do it myself. I like to study, I like to read, I like it very much. For me personally, I'm happy to help, like Adin says, and I'm happy to be here every morning at 5 o'clock and to sit together with a lot of light. help as much as I can in the everyday life of Johanneshof and of course help as much as I can in this winter branches.

[73:56]

But I have no, in the moment I have no interest or no special longing to be in a committee. Because I think there are enough people for this. had interest, and for you it's good to do this, and for me it's... No, but you can make suggestions to the... Of course. Always it would help. You know, this is a silly thing to say, but just you're translating yourself into German. No, you just did. But, you know, you say something in English and then you say the same thing in this extraordinary language. You all speak it. I feel like bowing very deeply and saying, how do you do it? It's just amazing. How do you know all this stuff? One or two books or texts so that everyone is sort of at the same level with this or these texts.

[75:03]

Yeah. Well, I would say that it ought to probably, there ought to be a This isn't exactly what you said, but there ought to be a list of a few English books that aren't available in German and people who know English well enough could study them too. It ought to be a kind of additional list, I think, if we do have a book list. And probably there could be, in addition to Zen Mind and Beginner's Mind, there could be a few transcripts of Sukershi's lectures and there might be a few transcripts of some four or five lectures that might be important to be familiar with.

[76:10]

Marie-Louise? I personally like this idea because it makes me happy, too, because I thought this should happen one day, and I've been thinking it will help me if I get compulsory texts. A compulsive person gets compulsory texts. No reference to you. But I have really a question. Maybe this is not very perfect, but I wonder why Frank, Ottmar, David have no comment to this. Maybe they are very surprised. This is the silent corner over here. Well, there is a wake-up bell every morning, and then we start sitting, and pretty soon there's a harm, and then we go to sit, and then there is sochi, and oyuki breakfast, and a work meeting, and then there's lots of work to do, and then hopefully we get a one-and-a-half-hour break, and then the whole stuff starts again in the evening.

[77:18]

We end with sitting, and then I try to read, and then I fall asleep after a half-page, and that's it. That's my curriculum. That's my curriculum. That's when I commence. We can put that on the list. Yeah, I have somewhat similar problem. I have had to learn to read real essential little parts. Yeah. Yeah, I love to read and to study. And I'm really happy that this is going on here. And I think it's useful to have a kind of structure for these winter branches when they should make sense. We could call it the bud list. Die Knospenliste. Should we translate? Yeah, go ahead. Ich kann es auch selbst sagen.

[78:19]

Ich studiere gerne, ich lese gerne, sehr gerne. And I think the winter branches are great that this is happening. For me personally, I'm happy to help, like Adin says. I'm happy to be here every morning at 5 o'clock and to sit together without mind. Help as much as I can in the everyday life of Johanneshof and of course help as much as I can in this winter branches. But I have no, in the moment I have no interest or no special longing to be in a committee, is it called committee? Committee. Committee. Because I think there are enough people for this, have interest and for you it's good to do this and for me it's... No, but you can make suggestions to the... Of course, I always would help them.

[79:21]

You know, this is a silly thing to say, but just you're translating yourself into German. No, you just did. But, you know, you say something in English and then you say the same thing in this extraordinary language. You all speak it. I feel like bowing very deeply and saying, how do you do it? It's just amazing. How do you know all this stuff? So every time you speak German, you may notice there's a deep bow coming from you. Do you want to say anything, David, since Marie-Louise has put you on the spot? Yeah, I'm not really interested in part of the curriculum because I think for me it's...

[80:25]

better to go a little bit away from structures. That's my personal part. Because you tend to structure things too much already. I don't want to cultivate that more. I'm more going in the other direction, away from it, but I definitely see that we have to find a kind of a way to... I don't think of a universal study or something like this, but kind of a culture for ourselves to somehow digest that information that we can get from ancient times and from people with it, and to share this too. I'm not so clear about what is the right form, and I think that's what we have to do. In a way, for me, it's a little too early to make decisions. In German, please. I myself have no interest in participating in a curriculum or structuring it,

[81:32]

I already have a good structure and I actually want to get away from it a little bit, I actually want to cultivate it even more, but I clearly see the necessity and the need for us to deal with the knowledge and the acquaintances of older times, of older teachers, of current teachers, that we are somehow looking for a form in which we can study. I certainly do not think of a university study, but rather of finding a form where this would be enough for us to ensure a personal study with this information, that we can then also share and exchange information together. I know if we do have this curriculum committee of some sort, I know Christian Dillow, for instance, would like to participate in it. And I know that if we have something like a curriculum committee, that in any case Christian Dello would like to participate in it.

[83:03]

Yeah. So, I mean, I appreciate what you said, David, and we should have some kind of diversity in how we approach this and what form it's going to take. And you can see in what I mentioned in my lectures, there's an implied curriculum, including Western And you can see that in my lectures there is something like an implicit curriculum and also on which western philosophers I relate to. Which includes some poets too, like Rilke, for example. But of course, you know, Zen has a tradition of making use of poems outside the intention of the poet. Gerald? And now let's stop because I want to do something and we're running out of time.

[84:05]

I have always wished that we could have established a kind of study group, both in Crestan and in Johanneshof. And I've heard addressed too by you right before. It always has been my wish to have a study group when I was at Johanneshof living. And in Creston, too. So every time you speak German, you may notice there's a deep bow coming from you. Do you want to say anything, David, since Marie-Louise has put you on the spot? Yeah, I'm not really interested in part of the curriculum because I think for me it's better to go a little bit away from structures.

[85:32]

That's my personal part. Because you tend to structure things too much already. Yeah, I don't want to... I'm more going in the other direction away from it but I definitely see that we have to find a kind of a way to study I don't think of a universal study or something like this but a kind of a culture for ourselves to to somehow digest that information that we can get from ancient times and from people living, and to share this too. I'm not so clear about what is the right form, and I think that's what we have to do. Right form, you mean this kind of meeting, or right form of the... Yeah, how to somehow... And so... In a way, for me, it's a little too early to make decisions.

[86:36]

Yes. German, please. For me, I myself have no interest in participating in a curriculum or in structuring it, I already have a good structure and I actually want to get away from it a little bit, because I actually want to cultivate it even more, but I clearly see the necessity and the need for us to deal with the knowledge and the acquaintances of older times, of older teachers, of current teachers, that we somehow look for a form in which we can study, I certainly do not think of a university study, but rather of finding a form where this would be enough for us to ensure a personal study with this information, that we can then also share it together, exchange it, I know if we do have this curriculum committee of some sort, I know Christian Dillow, for instance, would like to participate.

[87:42]

And I know that if we have something like a curriculum committee, that in any case Christian Dello would like to participate in it. Yeah. So, I mean, I appreciate what you said, David, and we should have some kind of diversity in how we approach this and what form it's going to take. And you can see in what I mentioned in my lectures, there's an implied curriculum, including Western people too in what I refer to. Which includes some poets too, like Rilke. But of course, you know, Zen has a tradition of making use of poems outside the intention of the poet. Gerald?

[89:01]

And then let's stop because I want to do something and we're running out of time. I have always wished that we could have established a kind of study group, both in Crestan and in Johanneshof. And I've heard addressed too by you right before. It always has been my wish to have a study group when I was at Johanneshof living. And in Creston. And in Creston too. In the paragraph before of that 1999, Roshi and I sat together and addressed that topic. And I am glad that this takes on a concrete shape of form and in any case we have taken into consideration what Ottmar said.

[90:16]

Because at first I came to being able to study only when I left Johanneshof. It is very important that the group living in Johanneshof can participate and then the schedule has to be organized that way that this group can participate. and not that people outside Johannesburg can take more time to study and here the Buddhist daily work is done and somehow the group is detached. Not that the people outside Johanneshof have and can take more time for studying.

[91:30]

And the group in Johanneshof doing the daily Buddhist work is sort of hooked off or left off. So all the serious students will be outside the center. And being a monk is something like being the old idea of a wife. And we cook and clean. But of course, you know, it's been... I was given quite a bit of money actually and a book contract 20 years ago or so. And the idea of the money is you take a year off or two. to write the book, but I've never taken the time off. Yeah, and so I'm going to try later this year to take three months off, first time in 45 years to take time off from the schedule. And see if I can finish it. It's now or never.

[92:52]

I got the most writing done in the last 10 years when I was accompanied by 70 Grey. Because during the radiation treatments I had nothing to do except go get zapped once every afternoon and the rest of the time I couldn't. But I'd rather not write in that way. Yes, Andreas? I also think that it is very helpful to find a way of structuring the so-called Buddhist and Zen themes. And I think it's very important that we find a form in a sort of organized way where we can approach Buddhist themes. Formerly when? when I read Ivan Illich and who was, I liked what he said about completely being against the curriculum, seeing the danger in it.

[94:23]

And for me this is a difference, at least to the West, studying in the so-called West, which is why I think I also come to him, is what Roshil in his introduction and in his entire teaching, at least as I understood it, had as its center, the so-called yogic practice. And the difference for me to normal sort of western type of study, that's why I actually came here to Zen, is your way of... You spoke before of 1999, Roshi and I sat together and addressed that topic. And I'm glad that this sort of takes on a concrete shape of form and in any case we have taken into consideration what Ottmar said. Because at first I came to being able to study only when I left Johanneshof.

[95:34]

It is very important that the group living in Johanneshof can participate and then the schedule is going to be organized that way that this group can participate. Not that the people outside Johanneshof have and can take more time for studying and the group in Johanneshof doing the daily Buddhist work is sort of hooked off or left off. So all the serious students will be outside the center. And being a monk is something like being the old idea of a wife. We cook and clean. But of course, you know, it's been... I was given quite a bit of money actually and a book contract 20 years ago or so.

[97:09]

And the idea of the money is you take a year off or two. to write the book, but I've never taken the time off. Yeah, and so I'm going to try later this year to take three months off, first time in 45 years to take time off from the schedule. And see if I can finish it. It's now or never. I got the most writing done in the last 10 years when I was accompanied by 70 Grey. Because during the radiation treatments I had nothing to do except go get zapped once every afternoon and the rest of the time I couldn't. But I'm rather not right in that way.

[98:19]

Yes, Andreas? I also think that it is very helpful to find a way of structuring the so-called Buddhist and Zen themes. And I think it's very important that we find a form in a sort of organized way where we can approach Buddhists and their themes. The other part is for me, when I read someone else in the School of Society, I liked very much that he was against every curriculum, because he saw the danger of a complicated school. when I read Ivan Illich and who was, I liked what he said about completely being against the curriculum, seeing the danger in it.

[99:23]

And for me this is a difference, at least in the West, studying in the so-called West, which is why I think I also come to the point, so what Rashid in his foretelling and in his entire teaching, at least as I understood it, as a kind of center, had the so-called yogic practice. And the difference for me to normal sort of western type of study and that's why I actually came here to Zen is your way of getting us into yogic practice. I'm quite curious to see how we get this together because the danger in the West is much of the discursive thinking and I know already what it's going to be. Yeah, Ivan Ilyich said that certainly was against coercive, socially coercive curriculums.

[100:39]

But he also had a very clear idea of what every intelligent person should know. And I would like to add the seeming danger that something would be sort of transferred out of Johanneshof. Our idea of a study group came from a sort of need or wishes. Normally it would be that everyone who comes here relies on the team in Johanneshof, organizes and works out everything from breakfast to going to bed. And it's just...

[101:52]

It made me a little sort of thoughtful that although Ottmar sort of gave the hint that we prepare ourselves a little, that so few just only did that. And what we want and should do now is to intervene as an intermediate stage and to be helpful to bring together material and to prepare topics and to contribute to a shared winter branch program together with the people in Johanneshof. and what our little group was actually planning was just to be an intermediary, intermediate, to get together material, literature, whatever, and then prepare something which then, in cooperation with Johanneshof, should be sort of becoming... Wholesome.

[103:10]

Wholesome, I guess now that's what I... cooperation or working together. Yeah, I don't think this should be run through the Johanneshof office, though. They've got enough to do, and they can't... It's got to be a separate thing which relates to Johanneshof. And there should be... I mean, let's stop at this point, except for this other thing... there should be a certain number of koans included. And so you ought to ask for suggestions of what two or three or one koan has been useful to you. From my point of view, I have lists of six, 20, 50, and 100 or so koans that ought to be, anybody who's in this lineage really ought to know well. But, you know, there's a minimum around 20, and there's really, we ought to know 50 or 100. But that's for the later development of the curriculum. To start out in the winter branches, two or three koans would be enough.

[104:36]

Speaking about koans, let me take a moment. sort of way of getting us into yogic practice. And I'm quite curious to see how we get this together because the danger in the West is, and mine too, is much of the discursive thinking and I know already what it's going to be. Yeah, Ivan Illich certainly was against coercive, socially coercive curriculums.

[105:40]

But he also had a very clear idea of what every intelligent person should know. Yes, Gerhard. And I would like to add the seeming danger that something would be sort of transferred out of Johanneshof. Our idea of a study group came from a sort of need or wishes. Normally it would be that everyone who comes here relies on the team in Johanneshof, organizes and works out everything from breakfast to going to bed. And it's just...

[106:52]

It made me a little sort of thoughtful that although Ottmar sort of gave the hint that we prepare ourselves a little, that so few just only did that. And what we want and should do now is to intervene as an intermediate stage and to be helpful to bring together material and to prepare topics and to contribute to a shared winter branch program together with the people in Johanneshof. and what our little group was actually planning was just to be an intermediary, intermediate, to get together material, literature, whatever, and then prepare something which then in cooperation with Johanneshof should be sort of becoming... Wholesome.

[108:11]

Wholesome, I guess now that's what they... Yeah, cooperation or working together. Yeah, I don't think this should be run through the Johanneshof office, though, that they've got enough to do and they can't can't you know it's got to be a separate thing which relates to johanneshof and there should be i mean let's stop at this point uh except for this other thing um there should be a certain number of koans included. And so you ought to ask for suggestions of what two or three or one koan has been useful to you. From my point of view, I have lists of 6, 20, 50 and 100 or so koans that anybody who's in this lineage really ought to know well. But there's a minimum around 20 and we ought to know 50 or 100. But that's for the later development of the curriculum. To start out in the winter branches, two or three koans would be enough for something.

[109:36]

Speaking about koans, let me take a moment. I don't think we now, this would take too long to mention in any detail, but I underlined the parts that really refer to the... Abhidharma. And you can see it very clearly in this koan three, and it's put in early position in the Shoyuroku because it's just expected.

[110:39]

It's very interesting to see why is the first koan the first, why is the second koan the second, and why the third koan is the third. And so, just read, according to the analysis... of the canonical teaching that's the Abhidharma most the five skandhas the twelve sense media the eighteen datus are all are the three groups you should know and this thing about you know he says he doesn't dwell in the realms of mind and body when breathing in and out. And it's interesting that this koan is about Prajñātāra because Prajñātāra is Bodhidharma's teacher.

[111:41]

And so it says, hey, here's Bodhidharma who just sat for nine years but who's his teacher? this guy who really knew the sutras in India. And it says Prajñātāra just brought up the head and tail implicitly including everything in between. And then there's six methods of breathing. And then Guishan, famous Guishan says, if you have not yet embraced the principles of the teachings, You have no basis to understand, to attain understanding of the mystic path.

[112:53]

And Zheng Zhao, the early Chinese kind of... is more poetic. And he says, a priceless jewel is hidden within the pit of the clusters of being. And the clusters of being refers to the whole. concept of the Abhidharma. And the pit we can take as knowing each Dharma. And that is the priceless jewel.

[113:58]

And I liked it. You have to implicitly discern the spring and autumn on the budless branches. The pivot is called the hinge nest. And to act before being directed and turn spontaneously without being pushed. Mm-hmm. I don't think we now, this would take too long to mention in any detail, but I underlined the parts that really refer to the...

[115:17]

Abhidharma. And you can see it very clearly in this koan three, and it's put in early position in the Shoyuroku because it's just expected. It's very interesting to see why is the first koan the first, why is the second koan the second, and why the third koan is the third. And so, just read, according to the analysis of the canonical teaching, that's the Abhidharma most the five skandhas the twelve sense media the eighteen datus are all are the three groups you should know and this thing about he says he doesn't dwell in the realms of mind and body when breathing in and out

[116:36]

And it's interesting that this koan is about Prajñātāra, because Prajñātāra is Bodhidharma's teacher. And so it says, hey, here's Bodhidharma who just sat for nine years, but who's his teacher? this guy who really knew the sutras in India. It says Prajñātāra just brought up the head and tail implicitly including everything in between. And then there's six methods of breathing. And then Guishan, famous Guishan, says, if you have not yet embraced the principles of the teachings... You have no basis to understand, to attain understanding of the mystic path.

[117:53]

And Zheng Zhao, the early Chinese kind of... is more poetic. And he says, a priceless jewel is hidden within the pit of the clusters of being. And the clusters of being refers to the whole. concept of the Abhidharma. And the pit we can take as knowing each Dharma. And that is the priceless jewel.

[118:58]

And I liked it. You have to implicitly discern the spring and autumn on the budless branches. The pivot is called the hinge nest. And to act before being directed and turn spontaneously without being pushed. Mm-hmm. And similarly in this koan 20, which is very important for our lineage, and it speaks about knowing, passing through all the five ranks,

[120:09]

The special teaching of our lineage through Dung Shan. Which is based on Nagarjuna and the Hua Yen teachings. So this is all like, it's just part of the koan, but it says, hey, you should know all this. before you even get any further in this book. Yeah, and then in walking and sitting, just hold to the moment, we discussed that. And then where it says, eye, ear, nose, tongue, distinguish territories. And that is again a direct reference to the Abhidharma.

[121:18]

And you see it in the Heart Sutra too. So that's enough. Let's sit for one moment and we'll start. How lovely it is to practice with you.

[123:07]

And similarly in this colon 20, which is very important for our lineage. And it speaks about knowing, passing through all the five ranks. The special teaching of our lineage through Dungsan, which is based on Nagarjuna and the Huayen teachings. So, this is all like, it's just part of the koan, but it says, hey, you should know all this. before you even get any further in this book. Yeah, and then in walking and sitting, just hold to the moment, we discussed that. And then where it says, eye, ear, nose, tongue, distinguish territories. That is again a direct reference to the Abhidharma.

[124:59]

And you see it in the Heart Sutra too. So that's enough. Let's sit for one moment and we'll stop.

[125:04]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_74.18