You know, it's my habit to start bowing, but please, you know, I feel any obligation to bow back. So I should tell you another driving anecdote. I think before we have some discussion, we need to say a little bit more about this awareness-consciousness distinction. So the other day, I don't know, Thursday night, I guess, I drove from Freiburg to... Freiburg to Hannover.

[01:08]

You should have... That was a problem. It was also to Kassel, because I went right by. Anyway, I started around 8 o'clock or something. In the evening. And it was kind of slow going. I thought there would be no traffic in the middle of the night. And I think somewhere south of the castle around one o'clock I ran into an immense stow. There's some construction down there. And there were literally thousands of trucks. I thought I was in the Grand Canyon. And so I was in this stow from something like 1 o'clock to 3 o'clock.

[02:21]

So, yeah, it's fine. You just sit there and you do something. My favorite comment about Staus, which again, many of you know, but I can't resist, would be written on a blank billboard outside of Munster, where for a couple of years there was a construction. And it said, you think you're in a stow, But you are the stow. Buddha's been writing on billboards. Some of that graffiti Buddha's out sneaking out at night.

[03:21]

That's how you meet the Buddha. It was also during that night, Thursday night, pouring rain Friday morning, the way we say in English. And so at some point around 2 o'clock, I decided I needed to take a nap. So taking a nap in the middle of the night in a stow is not so good because the cars in front of you sometimes start to move and then the people behind you don't like it. So I thought, you know, I don't want to wait until the car in front of me moves.

[04:22]

I should be ready to move. And the car, two cars in front of me, moving. So through the wet, and this is just part of my, I experiment with it all the time, just fooling around in it. I'm doing it because I need a nap, but I'm also doing it to see, how can I do this? So I picked the kind of red light of the taillight of the car in front of the car in front of me. And I cocked one eye open slightly and focused on the red triangle.

[05:29]

And I programmed myself. I had the intention that if that red triangle moved, I would move the car. Yeah, so I... let go of all the balloons, and went quite asleep. And then, as soon as that red light moved, I... In fact, I was quicker at moving than the car in front of me. But I got a nap, I don't know, 10, maybe 20 minutes nap. With several, you know, we'll be in the car a little bit.

[06:38]

So, what state of mind am I in? My consciousness, I let usual consciousness go so I could take a nap. But I kept an intention present, focused on this red triangle through the two wet rear and front windshields. It's rather pretty, actually. I mean the world disappeared and it was just this red triangle out there somewhere. It was like I was some sort of mystic. Anyway, so What does this tell us?

[07:53]

That separate from consciousness, this other mind, whatever it is, which is focused on the red triangle, knows that it has to wake up and drive every few minutes. So, in other words, it's non-conscious, but it's knowing. So, it's a non-conscious knowing. In which intentions function, but not discursive thinking. Okay. Now, this non-conscious knowing, which is a non-discursive, non-conscious mind, is at the center of Zen practice.

[08:56]

I think it's also similar if Andrew back there threw me a ball. Unexpectedly. Please don't. I would probably put up my hand and catch it. But actually that's a rather complex mathematical calculation. I have to calculate the arc of the ball and put my hand in the right place. This does not happen consciously. So even while I'm conscious, this non-consciousness is present. Now, another common example I use, and in Hanover I brought it up again, because what I'm talking about now is what we talked about mostly in the pre-day or prologue day.

[10:15]

She brought up the fact that you can set your mind to get up at a particular time, and you're asleep. And I've experimented a lot, like if you're traveling in Japan or something, Do I use the clocks of the American time or the Japanese clock? Or what I know they're wrong in the real time, you know. So I set my mind on one of them. Whenever it is that works, I wake up at 6.02 or whenever I decide. Did I say all that? Now, this is a fairly common experience.

[11:32]

Many, many, all of you, maybe, at least many of you have the experience. But what does it tell you? It tells us that awareness doesn't sleep. Consciousness needs to sleep, but awareness doesn't need to sleep. You can put the tension You can put intentions into awareness and they're present night and day. But consciousness holding the world together has to take some rest now and then, let the balloons go. Now, the Freudian idea of the mind of free association is from a Buddhist point of view one surface of what I would call awareness.

[12:36]

And a similar dimension of awareness, aspect of awareness, like dreaming mind. Und es ist ein ähnlicher Aspekt des Gewahrseins wie zum Beispiel der träumende Geist. Wenn das Bewusstsein die Inhalte des Geistes loslässt und eher unerwartete Dinge in das Gegenwärtigsein auftauchen, so you can free associate outside of usual conscious constraints. So we could go into this in more detail, but I think that's this aspect we could go into in more detail, but let's leave it for now.

[13:43]

Okay, so what Buddhism has decided to do as a yogic practice, now, if we only call, if we call, I'm calling, this non-conscious, non-discursive mind, This knowing and in this knowing non-conscious mind in which intentions can function but not discursive thinking I'm calling that awareness. Now, the Etymology of awareness and consciousness work quite well. Awareness is rooted in the idea of being watchful.

[14:50]

Wary. So it doesn't sleep. And consciousness in English has the word scissors in the middle of it. S-C-I means to cut. Consciousness. So consciousness is the mind that divides things up into parts and relates them. Okay. And that takes, obviously, or seems to take quite a lot of energy. It takes the energy of being awake. But from Buddhist point of view, if you identify with the structures of consciousness as you, you're making a fundamental mistake.

[15:55]

It's a necessary identification. But you should know it as a provisional identification. It's a way of functioning, but it's not the entirety of who and what you are. And I use who and what because there's a subtle sense of self and of whatness both in awareness as well as consciousness. So Buddha isn't from the beginning because it's rooted in the practice of awareness. The word Buddha means to be awake. And it was a young, rather quite intelligent, rather earnest monk came to a seminar in Hanover, a Westerner named Wolfer, we haven't figured that out, I think it's Wolf, who practices and has been in Japan and lives in Hanover.

[17:19]

And in Hannover, there was a young and quite intelligent monk, whose name was either Wolf or Ulf, we're not so sure, but he came to Hannover. She thinks it's Wolf, I think it's Wolf. Anyway, he said, you know, he's... somewhat new at practicing and he said with some amazement when he did a sashim he found during the night he was asleep but completely awake at the same time and knew everything was going on around him so he was a good example of the It's not really extreme, but I can use the word. The extreme Buddhism goes to goes to so that you awake, wake up awareness.

[18:40]

And wake up to it being always awake. Okay, so going back a bit, even if you don't practice sashins and things like that, Buddhism would say all of us are both conscious and aware in the way I'm using the word. and that awareness is always present and used for non-conscious activities like catching a ball and we teach babies, infants to not wet the bed by teaching them intention an intention in awareness, so they don't wet their bed while they're asleep.

[19:58]

Yeah, and there's a, but our culture has decided to primarily emphasize consciousness. Yeah, there's various shifts going on now, but still, that's the main thing. No, we didn't want to throw consciousness out with the bathwater. Do you have that expression? To throw the baby out in the bath water? Okay. Okay. And there's a clear shift I watch in mothers and fathers taking care of their children.

[21:12]

When the infant is pre-language, The mother and father, mother is more obvious, relate to the child through awareness. If the baby's crying, they pick it up, they hold it, they kind of make noises and things like that. As soon as the baby starts to speak and is ready to be socialized, the mothers and fathers will start telling the child what to do. And you can watch, I've watched the mother tell an older child, stop crying and

[22:13]

It's like consciousness to this one and awareness to this one. And that's a pretty clear-cut moment when you're actually training the child to identify itself through consciousness and in cultural and social terms. What I notice in yoga cultures like living in Japan often on 35 years Relating to the child through awareness goes on much longer And even with adults, it's like that.

[23:25]

I remember having friends in Japan, really in Japan, not so they're trying to relate to you as a Westerner. I spent the whole day with this young man. I don't remember. I was not so old myself. Maybe in my 30s. I don't know what we did. I remember we were on buses and we were on trains and we did something. I don't remember. From about 9 o'clock in the morning till 5 in the afternoon, something like that. He must have said three sentences. And I'm used to relating. I don't want to talk. I bring up a subject and then it would disappear.

[24:27]

And I began to think this guy just doesn't like me. I tried to find interesting things to say, not the words. I went through a couple of hours of feeling uncomfortable. Finally I gave up and just sat there with him, you know. At the end of the day, I was like, wow, what's going on? He said, this was one of the most wonderful days I've ever had. I felt so close to you the whole day. And, you know, I think he was able to relate to me without my being aware of it exactly.

[25:39]

Because I'm a practitioner of meditation, he could relate to me bodily without my even noticing that that's what he was doing. Because he could relate to me bodily, he could not bother to relate to me consciously. And we feel that way with lovers and we feel that way with others. But we don't feel that so much with each other, with strangers. And in fact, if you do feel that way with strangers, they feel a little bit like they back off. They're like you're being too intimate.

[26:41]

They're lovely with it. Okay, so, again, starting from where I started a few minutes ago. Buddhism and Zen in particular has made a choice in practice with people To only relate to people through awareness and not through consciousness. And when you relate to them through consciousness, you do it because they expect it socially, you know, blah, blah, blah. But, you know, it's kind of like, do I have to do this? And all of you who have done sashins know that basically a sashin, that's one of the dimensions of a sashin.

[27:42]

But lots of people who practice, when they really get in a situation where you take away their social body, I did Crestone for three months, they really, they lose it. They can't, they lose their own identity. Okay, so this is one of the ways the world assumed that it's one of the... When you look at Buddhist practice, whose practice is based on relating to people through awareness and based on assuming the world exists through, yeah, something like awareness. How the world exists through awareness, is that what you said?

[29:02]

Yeah, I don't know. I would like to say that better, but that's what I say. Okay. Now, I presume, if I was a psychotherapist, I have certainly done psychotherapy in the past, been a client or patient or whatever you call it. I think a good therapist, one of the first things they have to do is interrupt the social body and relate to the person in another way. Let the social body come in only at certain times. So certainly we make use of, and psychotherapy makes use of, this territory, I would say. But Buddhism, Zen, try to develop this as fundamental way you are present in the world.

[30:24]

So there's three stages. And I'll only touch on the first stage now. And we'll see if we talk about the next two. But the first stage, I'll just mention, then I'm going to stop. A simple example. One of the first things you... What are the common recommendations when you start to practice satsang? It's suggested that you count your breath, count your exhales usually to ten. Start over again.

[31:26]

And it's quite difficult to do, actually. You count to one, maybe you get to three. You're free associating and the balloons are everywhere. And you think I'm just a bad practitioner and I can't... I'm so distracted, you know, blah, blah, blah. Well, that's partly true that you're distracted, identified with consciousness. The real problem is Awareness doesn't know how to count.

[32:32]

You've taught consciousness to count. I mean, we teach the infant his or her ABCs and count to ten, you know, Ichi, Ni, San, Shi. I mean, Eins, Zwei, Drei. Eins, Zwei, Drei. You're teaching consciousness to structure the world, to create here and there, before and after. But we don't actually... Awareness doesn't know how to count. It only knows how to pre-associate. So when you get zazen and you can only count to one, one... One, you know, you can't get past one. It's called counting to one. This is not because you're a bad practitioner, a weak Buddha. Because awareness is doing what it's supposed to do.

[33:46]

It's free associating. So you're weaving mind and body together by counting. And more precisely, you're also weaving together awareness and consciousness. You're teaching awareness to count. So it begins to have a developed interface. Okay, that's stage one. That's stage one of my talking to. Somebody, anything you'd like to say? What are your experiences of awareness? How would you describe what I'm talking about? Nobody can be second, someone has to be first.

[34:47]

Can't be second first. So awareness for me means to become permeable for something and to be aware for whatever may appear within me. Good.

[35:48]

I would call that the mind of acceptance. Which is a kind of territory that overlaps consciousness and awareness. At least in the way I look at it. But you're right, what you say. Most of the time I prefer not to comment on what people say. I like to listen. Yes, girl. The quickest route into awareness for me is a kind of concentration or one pointedness.

[36:59]

That can be anywhere. Car is in the way. and to be just focused on one thing. And wherever I stand or walk and just focus on one thing at a time then the space of awareness seems to open up. I'm not sure whether this is the same thing you are describing. But what happens is a physical, bodily, and an expansion in the mind as well when I do this.

[38:30]

So it's an expansion. Okay, and why would you say this is not... In what way would you... You said you're not sure this is the same as I'm talking about. In what way would it not be what I'm talking about? Maybe because you say we are believing awareness and consciousness together. And this seems something like plain awareness. Plain awareness. Because there's nothing I can say about this later. It's just like it doesn't include consciousness at all. Wow. I know, of course, that's what I'm talking about. Anyway, okay, someone else.

[39:32]

Are you going to translate yourself? Oh, yeah. He's German, so I think he's speaking German. ... [...] I would like to apply this to psychotherapy. And then it seems to me that problems that people suffer from are often initiated by being hurt in a field of awareness. And then they later struggle with consciousness and try to work with this decision they have made, an awareness.

[40:53]

Yes, I understand. The art in therapy is to shape the condition in such a way that you can get back into this state of awareness and make this decision again. And then the art of psychotherapy may be that you get back into this state of awareness in order to take the decision back. Instead of working on it with consciousness. I see. Yeah, good. So basically you say that working as a psychotherapist you implicitly acknowledge this distinction between awareness and consciousness. Would you say that you, as a psychotherapist, implicitly recognize this distinction between reality and consciousness? Yes, but I haven't learned that in psychology. Yes, but I have not learned that within psychology, but I have learned that elsewhere.

[41:54]

There is a long tradition of criticism of these consciousness-oriented works. In the early years it was discovered that Freud's work on therapy didn't work or didn't work the way you wanted it to. Therapies took a very long time and I think one of the reasons was that you looked at the level of consciousness or tried to fix the truth on the level of consciousness. But there's been a long phase of criticizing this consciousness-oriented working of how psychotherapy is to work, and one of the main critics on psychoanalysis was that it just took too long and that that was probably because they stayed in consciousness. Despite some free association. Yeah. Okay. or to fixate whatever the findings on this cognitive or conscious level.

[42:55]

Freud seemed to have the idea that if you bring it into consciousness, it heals, which isn't true always. He wanted to make the unconscious conscious but not awareness. Yeah, that's good. Well, one of the things I might talk about, I'd like to talk about, is the really profound difference between the alaya vijnana and the unconscious. The alaya vijnana is often translated in psychological terms as a kind of unconscious storehouse of memories. But this is very inaccurate. My impression in listening to Norbert's comment is that, you know, I studied

[43:56]

read and studied psychology back in the 50s. I must be getting old! Much later I had some contact, I mean, you know, 10, 20 years ago, I began to have contact with psychotherapists through talking with them. And it seems to me that the practice of psychotherapy got way ahead of the theories. And in a sense, it's the same. Practice is way ahead of the philosophy. The philosophy and theories come after. They're discovered through the practice. And it's the same in Zen.

[45:25]

The practice is very far ahead of the theories and the philosophy. The philosophy actually comes after the practice has discovered it. I often think for myself, and also for my colleagues, that the decision is not so important. I often make for myself and also with clients the decision to not think. So that this mode of thinking is more in the background. and to create some kind of confidence that something may appear, will appear.

[46:28]

And for myself this a lot of times is not so easy even though I know it in my head. That this will actually become possible, that this will actually happen. So that I myself, often when I have certain situations, try to make this mode of awakening at all possible. That sometimes changes, So I try to make this mode of things arising to even make it possible and to also teach that to my clients. And now there's a question.

[47:32]

Do I, that which appears, then for myself or also within my job, then accompany with a wealth? Or, you know, that's what he does, yeah. So that I'm a little confused now. This mode of having things arising, that seems to be awareness, but then the accompanying it, is that also awareness? What do you mean by, what's the difference between arising and accompanying it? Let's say I have some kind of issue. You with the client or with yourself?

[48:41]

That's for me. Yeah. Then I let an experience appear. Then I wait for it to appear. when I allow for some kind of bodily sensation to appear and I'm basically waiting for what may appear. Physical sensation or inner imagery, something. This state of mind or this state of perception, does it actually matter? And now this state of mind, this field of sensation, that is what I call awareness. And then physical sensation arises and I don't try to interpret that or to do anything with it, but I just stay.

[49:45]

But it does feel like two different kinds of awareness. Well, maybe there are two different attitudes within awareness. I think of Freud, I believe, again, that one of his techniques was for the therapist, psychoanalyst, to also in himself, herself, sometimes his daughter, establish a mind of Free association. Simultaneously with the client's mind, I said free association.

[51:01]

They both had to be in the same state of mind. That's similar, I think, in a way to what you're saying. I think it often pleases with the therapists of psychoanalysis, who have instructed that the therapist, while the client is in the state of mind of the free association, that the therapist himself also enters this state of mind, so that they are together, together, at the same time in this state of mind. And that sounds similar to what you described there. I read once that Einstein, somebody asked Einstein, our most famous genius, Einstein, where did your ideas come from? He said, from my body. I'd noticed a feeling in my body that I didn't expect, and I'd pay attention to it, it would turn into an idea. Ich bemerke eine Empfindung in meinem Körper, die ich nicht erwartet habe, und dann lege ich da Aufmerksamkeit drauf, und dann verwandelt sich das in eine Idee.

[52:07]

Also vielleicht war ein Teil seines Genies, die Intelligenz des Körpers zu bemerken. You came all the way from Munich, you get to talk. Du bist jetzt ganz aus München gekommen, dafür darfst du auch sprechen. My thinking mind likes to understand things in imagery. and my question is about the weaving together of awareness and consciousness and it's about whether I can weave that into my consciousness into a wave yeah When I have the image that our body, soul, mind, organization is built up in layers, like an onion,

[53:16]

And that the layers are all interconnected just like an onion and life flows through each of them. And that when there's a problem that we then get stuck in one of these layers. Now does your image of interweaving the layer of consciousness with the wider layer of awareness, does that fit together somehow? Yeah. Yes. But there's a difference between it happening sort of naturally and so forth. And clearly metaphors and imagery are one of the bridges between awareness and consciousness.

[54:44]

As in dreams we think So when you create an image, you're often letting a flow occur between consciousness and awareness. Sometimes I have a little footnote in my head. You're overemphasizing the distinction between consciousness and awareness. A footnote in my head, a headnote in my foot. But so far, actually, I haven't come to the end of the value distinction between awareness and consciousness. Yeah, sorry, here I'm commenting on what you said because I generally don't like to, but what you said was complicated enough that I have to comment now and I won't remember later.

[56:02]

Yeah. The difference between it happening naturally through imagery, naturally, through imagery, et cetera, is different than actually developing, like teaching awareness how to count, and really developing the relationship between awareness and consciousness. It's the development of the awareness, that relationship rather, which is almost the whole of what center practice is about. Consciousness. No, the relationship.

[57:05]

Developing the relationship is almost the whole of what you mean. Not that. Didn't you have the early view? It was me. Oh, that's all right. So my feeling was that the first step from what Gunther depicted, allowing things to arise, that I was tuning into awareness, but then the accompanying things, that that was more an attitude of mindfulness. OK. Yeah, OK.

[58:07]

That's all right. Let me go back to Gunther, you a minute. Because you do it, you must create, let's call it a mind of non-thinking or something like that. You must do this because it's an effective part of the therapeutic relationship. Now, is it something you do now and then in particular circumstances, or is it a dominant... atmosphere approach of your psychotherapeutic practice with somebody. It's the dominant orientation.

[59:25]

Now did you come to that through your study of psychology and psychotherapy, or did you come to that through the practice of psychotherapy, or did you come to that through your Zen practice, or some sort of mixture? Did you come to this through your study of psychotherapy and psychology, or through the practice of psychotherapy, or through the practice of Zen? He says, I came to this through all of this. If you were to take out the Zen practice, would you still do it, or is the Zen practice an important part of what you do? So on the one hand Zen practice and the studying of Zen just provide me with concepts to do it. And so the concepts that come from Zen are very important to me and not only the experience that comes from Zen.

[60:35]

But what's more important is that Zen practice has fostered the confidence of how important this is. And I suppose it must be, you've done sushis and things, given you an experience of how to bring it into your own body. Now one of the truisms I think that we should put out here is of Yogacara Zen. Yogacara is one of the three schools that led the basis of the development of the Zen school. And it's the most definitive its influence on the practice.

[61:53]

And so one of the truisms of Yogacara Zen is that all mental phenomena have a physical component. And all human physical phenomena have a mental component. That means once you really know and embody a state of mind, feel a state of mind, you can index it to a physical sensation. I sometimes call it interdexing. But you can index it to a physical feeling, some location of the body or some relationship to the breath, and by generating that physical feeling, you can produce the state of mind.

[62:59]

So I imagine that Gunther generates this bodily feeling of not thinking. The bodily generation of it also cues it more in the client than your mental realization of the state. And that's why I assume that if Günther now brings up this mental state physically again, then it is so that this physical bringing up of this mental state draws the client into this field rather than the mental understanding, the mental realization. Yes. So for the last three years I've not done a single session, but I've tried to bring...

[64:06]

to bring the mind of awareness into the mind. We're all getting too old, you sashi. We're all getting too old to do sashis. But she's tried to bring the mind of awareness into her everyday life. And with that I realized that my time was getting better and better. So it has a good effect. But now I think it makes a lot of sense to do a sashi again. So, I realized that for some time that went really well and it had a great effect on my everyday life, but now I know... ...gave me to think. So, I had recently heard a preface that people give themselves a dark room over several weeks, that is, they do a dark therapy for themselves. And I wondered, is that probably more intense? Could that be in danger? And I heard something that I'm thinking about, which is that some people seem to be doing this darkness therapy.

[65:25]

Darkness therapy? Yeah, where for some days they lock themselves in a dark room. With the client? Yeah. They locked themselves into this room? They locked themselves with someone else. Who has the key? She's wondering whether that may be more intense or more helpful. I've heard that it seems to be a tradition for the Tibetan monks that they lock themselves into these rooms for seven weeks or so. And after I have been dealing with it for half a year now, it seems to me that I don't want to be in this dark space because I am afraid that I will miss the structure.

[66:35]

Or if I would give myself the structure there, then I would rather go to a session where I have this structure. I think I need the structure and my fear and pain. And now that I've thought about it, I realize that I do not want to go into the static room because I feel like the structure is missing. And if I was going to provide the structure for myself, then I should probably better just go to a sasin where the structure is provided already. If you have a young son, he can bring you food. that the structure may help her to take care of herself. So the question is, do you always need some kind of security in order to live this awareness? And that would then also have to be applied in therapy, whether it's necessary to create a safe environment, a safe atmosphere, so that this opening into awareness is possible.

[68:06]

That's what I think it is. Well, there are quite a lot of dimensions to what you said. So, you know, it's about time we should break for lunch, but let me speak to some of the dimensions. Yeah, I mean, it sounds interesting to go in. I mean, I can imagine doing it. It must overlap with Sashin experience. But different is different, so it probably has some differences. And do some of you know the film, I think made by a German man, about these people in the Andes called the... message from the brothers or something like that.

[69:09]

Anyway, it's a culture. It lived in the higher part of the mountains in Peru, I guess. The Andes. And they picked certain children. I don't remember how old, but pretty young, two or three, four or something like that. And they bring them up in utter... And there's a whole system to bring them food and... And like in choosing any medicine man or shaman, there's ways you figure out which children can handle such training and which they can't.

[70:22]

Even in Zen monasteries, they pick certain young men, sometimes women, usually of course men, and they give them different training than the other monks. Can these people have a different way of knowing the world after all those years in the darkness? But of course, as you imply, if you take away someone's conscious identity, you have to give them a lot of support in the transition. And I have, as a person responsible for people practicing, I have to notice when someone already doesn't have a personal identity and they're trying to create it through Zen practice.

[71:52]

I have to stop that. So monastic life and sashin is a little version of monastic life. It is meant, it is designed so you don't have to really can abandon consciousness. You can walk into trees, you can do whatever you want because somehow food is going to appear and the schedule is going to keep you going. So, I mean, if you're strict, there should be no reading during the monastic practice, there should be no telephone calls, there should be no internet, there should be no socializing, etc., But if I did that as strictly as should be done, short of living in a dark cave, I would have only one or two or none gifted students.

[73:05]

Because most people are not able to give up their conscious amusement or definition of activism. Even for three months they can't. So the more radically you do it, the more support you have to give. Until you don't need the support. Until you don't need the support. Okay. Could you... You spoke about not thinking, and you last night told me an example of not knowing and how you use the body to cue somebody, and you seem... Can you say something about that again? I mean, just to end, before we have much?

[74:25]

And you can do it in German, because I've heard it in English. Okay. Yesterday with Washington, the meaning of the non-knowledge in the psychotherapy and explained to him how to deal with it. Quite practically, for example, when you talk to a client, you don't know how it will go on, it's a puzzle and so on. But clearly in the... I stand up, close my eyes and go two steps forward and two steps back. And I do the two steps again and stand up. You don't know if it's a body, if it's a body, if it's a wall, whatever you want to call it. You take these two steps. And that brings a very physical, clear experience very quickly. You do the same thing, but completely different. You described how you get people to take some steps and then to... That's good.

[75:35]

They're doing the same things, but it's completely different. Two steps in a way, but it's completely different. Well, actually, one of the practices arises when you do is you walk as if the floor is not going to appear. That's a Zen practice. Then the floor comes up to find your foot. That's sort of like creating a darkness in the mystery of consciousness. Now, you know, I'm able to talk about partly I'm able to talk about what you are ready or need to receive. Yeah, I never know what to say. I just feel something, that's all I talk about.

[76:36]

Not entirely true, but mostly true. So the more you kind of have a feeling of what would be useful, this will help me find what is useful. So I think we decided on about two hours for lunch. Is that right? So we come back at 20 to 2? No. 20 to 3. 20 to 3, I mean? I can't count. I mean, consciously or unconsciously. 20 to 3? Oh. He used to come back at quarter to three and start at quarter to three. Thanks a lot. This was fun.

[77:27]

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