I would like to give a short summary of where we are standing at the moment. Also with a thank you to you that you have given me the opportunity to speak to you through the preparation, through this long exchange and also through the discussions. When I get somewhere, it's actually quite easy. Yesterday it was mentioned again and again, then we go up or we go down from 1 to 4 or from 5 to 1. That is of course a possibility to look at the five kardlas. We all know this story of Belorossi, someone goes with the radio and you hear something and then memories and emotions and feelings come and then you can recognize it as a song and so on.

[01:10]

This is of course a hike through the feet of Carlos. But as I understood it, the doctrine of the five skandhas is much more about each single skanda than a separate, closed area. And the question is, can I locate myself in this skanda? What kind of continuity do I find in the individual scandals as an alternative to this continuity that we see in the fifth scandal? in this consciousness that makes everything predictable, that sees everything somewhere in fixed units and not so much this activity, but much more of this unity thinking with which we make the world predictable, which we also need to function, but in this consciousness scandal

[02:25]

That's how we function, that's how we find our identity and that's how we create something like I. That somewhere your skandhas consciousness is full of I. And that's where it's interesting to stop at every skanda and to look, can I locate myself in it? And what does it mean to locate oneself in it? And what, ultimately, do I locate in it? Because yesterday we had this indescribable feeling where everyone agrees, where is it in this room? And somewhere I can also find my continuity in it, but I can't say, yes, I, because the I stands it splits in between and at that moment the whole thing collapses, because the light comes back in again, now I have it and now I want it and now I have it fixed and then it doesn't work anymore.

[03:30]

So the question that we always have to ask ourselves in practice and in our experience with the Five Candles is, and we need to see that, and we need to slow down, to slow down the speed and to ask ourselves, can I place myself in it? For example, do I find a continuity or a Maybe I can say a space of being in something that I cannot grasp, that I cannot name, but still somehow an arrival in there, that may also fit. There I arrive, I can't grab it, because I would grab it and that means I want to hold it now, but somehow I arrive and somehow I can experience how this space, the non-grabble felt, for example, can give me a space of the being.

[04:43]

And that is a great alternative to the space of the being that I constantly build up in the dem fünften, den Osterskandal. Und da ist das It is also interesting to notice which leaps I am making or how fast I am going through this canvas or where do I have to stop and maybe take a step backwards and say, what does it look like if I now take away the knowledge from what I am experiencing? Then suddenly it is a different location, it is opening up a different space. And now I would like to say a little something about this true side character. Beroshi has always taught this, and I cannot mention many lectures about it.

[05:47]

In Cresthorn, the planes fly over it and it's an explosion. Here it could be a car or something. And how fast everyone of us goes there and says, this is an airplane, this is a car, or this is this or that. But what remains when I take away the name? Or when Gisela raises the cup and then Becker-Roschen sits here in front and raises his bell and says, this is not a bell. What does that mean? What does it mean in the end? In the perception scandal it means, I take the name bell with me, this overall concept, this is a pen, or this is a cup, or this is a bell. I take this concept with me, this idea, this finished idea that is behind it, with which we are usually satisfied when we say, yes, that's a bell.

[06:53]

and take it with you and take the name away and just try to figure out what ultimately remains of perception, and that is the perception scale. What remains of perceptions? When Manuela lifts her notebook or you lift your mat or you lift the cup and I hold it tight and ask myself, what perceptions do I have now? And then I can say, that is soft, that is cool, that feels good, that is raw, these are the perceptions. And that is the perception scanner. And to open this room for what I perceive, that is the scanner number four. And that is another room where the perceptions

[07:59]

have more space than to immediately give the perceptions a concrete name and to say, yes, that is this or that is that or that is a bird and that is such a bird or that is a tree. Can you just say, you said that is Skanda number 4, what do you mean now? No, sorry, that is the Skanda number 3. That means, we now come to scandal number three, we open, we keep a space in which, in quotation marks, as far as we can get it in our space, there is only warning. and we locate ourselves in what we perceive. And that is something different than to locate oneself behind someone who knows and who already knows the whole thing. Then you can play. Because one can play, that is, live in a playful way and can say, well, how does that change when I suddenly say that I give the navel and I pull the navel away again.

[09:12]

And the moment I pull the navel away, the perceptions are more present. And that also fits very well with the name, that I live the truth. It's just a different, yes, it's almost like a different truth. It's a different truth when I perceive what I hear, in quotation marks, only hear or only feel or only experience it that way. Or like yesterday, when we see it in the tree, then Are we satisfied with the fact that we say, yes, that's a tree. I take a tree as a fact, but that's not true. I actually don't take a tree as a fact.

[10:13]

I see it, I smell it, I see the bark, I see the surface, I can feel it. These are the perceptions. But we are satisfied with the name and cover the whole thing with the name and do not give these perceptions this space that they can actually have. And the refreshing thing about this third skanda is that it is a different orientation if I can only stay with perceptions. I can also do that with pain. Of course, I can say that this is my knee and if it goes on like this and we have five periods left today, at least that will be a catastrophe today. But I can also only go to the perceptions and give the pain energy a space in which I perceive it. And then it changes the whole thing. I give it a space and by giving space a change is created.

[11:14]

That is this exchange. that is created here. And Bergerotti also always says that this exchange here also makes it clear that it is not a tree, but somehow trees. Or a field is created between between me as the perceiver, between the object of perception and this togetherness, this field of perception, and that is another room of the layout and it is another room in which my continuity lies. So far, first of all, to the perceptions. And now we have to shorten that a little bit, but I would still like to hear a few voices about it, otherwise we will no longer come to the fourth Kriko.

[12:21]

Yes, to the subtraction, so the tree is now always called the name, and if I now say something, for example, I see something, and say, or taste something, for example, today at lunch there is risotto, and say, no, this is not risotto, or it actually tastes different. So, is that already the fourth thing that influences the perception, or is that already an association, or more? So that the experience of the good part... Assuming we had never eaten risotto before and we would sit down for lunch and everyone would say, it tastes like this and that and that and that. It's hot, it's rice, it's grain, it's this and that. Then we would be at the perception. If I say, I've had better risotto before, then I would transport the whole thing somewhere else. But the perception really goes, we sit down for lunch at the table

[13:24]

and taste and would then try as far as we can write it with words, then the names come in again, but somewhere we have to talk about it and would simply this taste, the warmth and whatever is there on the tongue and in my mouth or wherever it happens, I also touch the bowl, these are the vani. And where does this, I like it, I don't like it, neutral come from? Then I'll go a step further. It also helps... So that comes from... That becomes... also offered to differentiate these perceptions, but not so far as to differentiate that everything does not fit me or I already have a better one or it tastes wonderful, I can of course sharpen my perceptions, this field that arises through perception, to expand it by saying, okay, this is something that is neutral, this is positive or this is negative.

[14:44]

But only to the extent that I expand the field of perceptions, but expand it intelligibly. I stay with the perception. I have a completely different experience from what you are describing. In the moment when I remove the concept, the concept of a cup or a room, or when I am in pain, I open the door and a room opens up. Unimaginable things can happen. My only question is, why don't we take away a term like flat and cool? Aren't those concepts too? That's where I really find myself not quite in the experience. that everything should be separated. There I always have the feeling, I like to use the Russian word Schliemtür, there it goes a bit back and forth. And I think this sharp separation is beautiful.

[15:46]

That it is now sharp or that it is so or that it is so, these are of course names or ultimately concepts that we add. That's just because we somehow have to talk about the whole thing. Otherwise we would ... I don't know what else we would do. If we leave the words completely out. But it is already ... It is simply an attempt to stay with the perception of taste and then simply arrange categories of this taste. And if you go into the literature at that time, they have lists like this and sweet and sour sheep and so on. and give this perception a whole possible palette of names. In the end, these are names again, but it should only help to stay with the perception and sharpen your perception, to expand this space. If you learn this, then it is very important to be very careful, because this is not a perception scandal.

[16:56]

If you add these descriptions of the Bodhisattvas, I only make them smaller, then it is no longer the tree, then it is bark, then it is rawness, then it is high and it is hot. This happens in the consciousness, in the associations, this description, the perception itself. Yes, but we need these words to talk about it. You can sit in your experience, you can go back, I don't care if it's sweet, sour, spicy or whatever, I stay with the taste, this is the sensation on my tongue. and I give it to myself, and more than that, that is the sensation in my knee. And I don't say it because it's good or bad, because that's the way it is, but I say I give it to myself, a rob of being, and this rob, and that's so nice to remember, is true, because it shows itself as true.

[18:03]

Yes, but that's also my question, what I meant yesterday, with removing the name. If I pull the nail off, I land in the perception. Yes. And it's not like I'm the perception scanner and now I put a nail on it, put a nail off it, put a nail on it and still put a nail off it and I'm in perception all the time. That doesn't work. Yes, I think yes and no. It's my feeling about it, because I think so. So, regardless of where you draw this line, perception, scandal or associations, what is very helpful for me is the distinction that Koshi often makes between names and concepts. And I can clearly see that. I am very much in line with what Agatha said yesterday. What I can do well is to have the experience a figure, be it anything, Jonas. To release a figure from the background.

[19:06]

Then I focus on you, and what happens in the background is the context in which you are embedded. And I can release you back into the field. And there the name Jonas helps me. I can do that. And to be able to name it helps me to get this figure out of the background. And on the other hand, it also helps me when I have a lot of ideas about who you are and how I find you and all the possibilities, how I want to talk to you and so on. These are all associations. And I can get myself back. I can delete the associations when I say Jonas. and then let Jonas appear in this Jonas. What I find helpful is to feel the difference in the experience, when all the associations that I have with them flow into the names. So these are also the Scandals. I thought it was very funny, that Hashima said at some point, five is just a convention. So to name the five Scandals, these are flowing transitions in perception. And there is an experience, what you both had yesterday, I understood it that way, that where you appear, I know that experience very well as the moment in which my other associations,

[20:19]

into the name, and then the whole thing becomes a concept. And then it's connected to all the other things that I think. And there I distance myself quite a bit from what actually appears to me in the fields of thought. And then I can, and this is then a sentence like, the meadow is not green, or the rose is not red. That's the name subtraction. And then you can even, from the remarks of this figure, remove the name and then the figure appears in her presence. So what Atmada says, I find it very important that you can also understand the Scandals as a continuum. I call for myself to stabilize myself to find a certain clarity in this practice. How is this room, this continuum, qualitatively different from the experience? the perception continuum, than the continuum of association. And there I feel a clear difference.

[21:28]

For me, that's the continuum of presence. where I feel presences. I don't have to name the presences. But I can name them, and if I do, then I notice how these presences, the feelings, move back a bit, and it moves away from the world of the imagination and the world of thought. And there is a network of conceptual relationships. But I can also talk about this continuum of presence. where everything is present and things flow together. If I look again from there, can I take something away from there? It's also about deconstruction and the passing of the continuum. That is also the process of the skandhas. What do I do in the concept of presence? Can I do something about it, I call it attachment activity, to find out how things really are. And I realize that I can do it. It's a bit tricky, but what I feel What I have to do is actually the step into neutrality, I notice that.

[22:40]

I notice that the things that I draw out as a figure, that they are often already pretty loaded with, means something to me, I like it, I don't like it and so on, they are already loaded somewhere, even if I don't call it that, but they are the way they are for me, the thing for me, so to speak. Okay, jetzt ist dann die Frage, wie kann ich aus diesem Kontinuum der Präsenz, das schon irgendwo ziemlich geladen ist, wie kann ich da ein bisschen mehr in die Richtung gehen, wie die Dinge an sich sind, ein bisschen mehr, dass jedes Ding aus sich heraus erscheint. And when I let go, it's a feeling of attachment. The direction for me is openness. Openness and neutrality. Whenever I notice that I don't like it, I don't like to take it off and put myself back into the basic feeling of acceptance. And that's very radical. Everywhere, everything that appears, we talked about that earlier, everything that appears, first with welcome or with yes or with something like that or with the feeling of acceptance to greet.

[23:44]

And what opens up then is a continuum of openness. But then you are in a new continuum. This is no longer the continuum of perception, but there you feel that you are in a continuum in which you can stabilize a mental attitude that is based on neutrality and openness. And my feeling is that, or it is also written in this text, it's not like that at all, it makes sense anyway, that connection and compassion can take place in it. This can also be stabilized as a continuum. This is the process of looking at the Scandals. Can I still have something there? Is there some feeling of grasping, some feeling of clinging? Yes? No? Is there something that I can take away? And there I notice within this process, I said that yesterday, that it goes a bit into the one, because what dissolves there, step by step, is the identity. It dissolves the identity, it also dissolves the flow of information and electricity.

[24:57]

Durkheim said a wonderful sentence, he said, go to where the electricity ends. That means I can, wherever I go deeper into it, and even the information that is there gives me space, absolutely accepting space, I give it space and somehow I always have the feeling my painful knee just wants to have a space, and the moment I give this knee this space, it becomes somewhere less, then I can really go almost there, where the current ends, and then the practices of the five skandhas show us a direction, a direction of emptiness, that ultimately at some point this current stops, and what happens then?

[25:59]

We can only speculate about that now, but it's a direction, a direction of emptiness. That's where the current ends, where there is no perception anymore, although somewhere, we are still sitting in the middle. But who hasn't experienced that in Sazen? We're just sitting in the middle, we still hear, we still feel the pillow, we still feel the body, the breath. But I can give everything absolute space, accept, let everything be there, not there, here, I want that, I don't want that, and sink in there, I sink deeper and deeper. and at some point there will be less and less information, and then the practices of the five skandhas show us the emptiness, but not from a philosophical point of view, because from a philosophical point of view you can only speculate, but from an experience point of view you simply don't know anything anymore, there is simply nothing left, it is a sitting in emptiness.

[27:02]

But the skandhas show the direction there, nothing more. And the practice needs to experience that or to sit down and practice with it. And to practice means to just try to be stoic at first, to say that everything is just perceivable. I take all this into account and give everything I perceive a room and say to this room, yes, welcome, and I want that to be true too, and I want that to be true too, but I no longer describe what I perceive. So I don't say that it's pain or that it feels like this, but I just give everything a room. And this smoke is what is shown in the room. Yes, it is somehow different truth.

[28:07]

It becomes different truth. If I say that it is a pain in the neck, then I am satisfied with this truth, it is also right. But if I give the space without naming it, then it will be somehow different. As if it can show itself, I give the space that it shows itself and then it is not satisfied. Mostly. I would be satisfied too. What I find important in the perception-scan, when you talk about it, we place ourselves in the scan itself, that I can feel the activity well, that something appears and I give it a certain duration and then let it go.

[29:08]

Yes. So that this is actually an activity where also something like someone is there who does that. and that is a difference from the two other groups before, and that is also something where, for example, when I feel pain, when they are intense, then the word pain comes to me, then I am at least in the fourth, but when I then subdivide this pain, so it is also an activity of making it small, of making it short, that is, making these fingers straight, then very different qualities can appear that I have never experienced before, but there are also those that I already know among these many experiences of pain that I experience, for example, as a tip or a stomp or anything else, and these concepts do not disturb me either, because I let them go anyway, because this activity of perceiving is where a lot of things come from the background,

[30:19]

This morning I also noticed a little better that I also come to the fourth skanda when I don't need words. Because I already know this perception, it goes quickly somewhere in the fourth. And then it helps me to cut the line in the word. This is the activity that I do in order to get back into this seventh stage. And I can also immediately come into the fourth stage without any meaning, because there is something known about the true self. Yes. I don't do it when someone is directly on. I would like to add something, because I also noticed that depending on what is perceived, it has a corresponding level on the physical level.

[31:28]

And that is very different. If I perceive a tree, this morning I only saw a shadow tear. in front of white, well, not a tree, but just like that, shadowless, almost one-dimensional, as if it had been cut out like that. And that has a completely different physical correspondence than when I am with a strong feeling and then it is a completely different duration and then it is a completely different process and then to stay on it and then incredibly many phenomena open up, i.e.

[32:28]

qualities that cannot be called because it is such a diversity and I think that is also interesting to see what is real and how is it physically. and there is probably a very nice load of me in it, and when that comes down, for example, I noticed yesterday with the feeling that it was knocking, so I thought that everyone would almost notice how it was knocking here, and then it sounded like that, first at night, that was a phenomenon, That really caught me, so to speak, and then I named it, and then I'm gone again, and then another one appears, but I find it also interesting to investigate, it has a different charge then, depending on what comes up physically, and then it has a different duration until it opens up.

[33:41]

and I think it is interesting how this is related to the I. This also makes me afraid, because these are also familiar structures, totally familiar structures, which then crumble, really crumble, and then what happens? Where do you hold yourself then? And that's why I think it's great how this morning it came, ah, this is a continuum, that now a continuum appears, that this room that I imagine to be like a continuum, or what does it mean to imagine, that this is the place where I can be. I no longer have to hold on to the structure, but I can practically hold myself in that space, that's how I started. That fits very well.

[34:51]

I wanted to say something about the practice of naming. For me it was very long, especially at the beginning of my practice, very important to stop my flow of information, to stop my flow of consciousness, to name the things that I am doing or attacking. door handle, door, open, and they then connected it with a practical area of the Intensive Museum, everything they saw was immediately named, and then one was also divided into the wall, crack, red color, and so this process of me, who is always running somehow, came to an end, to come to an end, and I need to be able to dive back into this phase and perceive things on a different, broader level. Just intensively, in detail.

[35:53]

I would like to share my experience in this round, because the scandals are now closed as a whole. Every scandal offers a door. to jump into the emptiness. It's not like you have to go down from the fifth to the first and then there's the exit. [...] It's not like you have to go down from the fifth to the first and then there's the to do that wrong. That would just make me a failure of experience. So with the perception scanner, I can do that, I need the next one, if I actually get to hear this exercise that nobody can hear.

[37:21]

that I perceive my own self, that I hear my own self and see my own soul, and then it takes away so much of these things that they are no longer things, objects, concepts, although I still understand them as red, so to speak, and then it does the same to me. I'm not there anymore. It's so close. It's somehow very close. I can't tell you in black and white, but it's very strange. There are still four words missing, and the fifth as well, but the fifth is associative.

[38:37]

We can definitely say that it is somehow still a state of mind that is different from the thinking state of mind in the fifth consciousness. And that is why you can ask again here How is this room, or what is this fourth section of the associative spirit, shows us another room, and it is not yet this thinking room that we all know, to the extent of what thinking does. Show us another room. Does anyone have an idea?

[40:01]

I think I read it this morning in this last Hannover seminar. It is described very nicely. Does anyone have an idea what kind of room is being opened here again or is being shown to us as a possibility to look into it? What I find easiest for the associative mind is to just let thoughts come and go, to build up this field so that thoughts can come and go. I'm also talking about this noticing without thinking about it. and not to think about it, it is still this associative and has a more conscious form in any case.

[41:32]

I also thought it was good, I think it was at that point, the primitive consciousness, that's why I thought it was good, the third dance. It makes me very familiar with the story and the context, which is very self-evident. but it is still entangled somewhere. I understood it like this, that it is a room in which further information can flow in, and thus the space is shaped differently, but it is not yet my conscious reflection on this further information. These free associations, that something is being advertised, or of course there are already pictures, there are thoughts,

[42:33]

something appears beyond the perception, not only something that my ear hears and my eye sees. Other information appears and often we experience it when we ask ourselves in Zazen, where does this come from? Why do I suddenly think about it? Or why do I suddenly have this picture? Or why do I think about this state? It's been so long ago. more information flows in, but I am not yet so involved in it, to draw this information now really from the past or the present or the future, but I leave the whole of this flow of information simply more in a space of trust and I am curious somewhere, also here again the accepting, I welcome that, I do not say

[43:39]

but I am no longer allowed to think about it now, that something is appearing or this picture, what is it supposed to be? I call it welcome and I see it as an information stream. There is more information coming, but I am not yet thinking about it. This is, of course, a found food for my thinking, Yes, and the thinking gets a lot more now and I can say, yes, only now I can really grab something and then I can explain to myself why it appears again for the hundredth time. But maybe it just wanted to have another look and it is an information behind it, something of importance that I can't think of yet, but I have created the space and suddenly a lot of information flows in.

[44:50]

There comes a lot of information, what we all say, and I just open a space for the flow of information. And I think this example fits quite well, that's what Freud had developed, he put people on a couch and said, stop thinking, just blabber or just tell. This free will is an association where suddenly the information somehow comes from another depth or from another layer where I am not consciously thinking, and that is simply something else, that is more valuable than what can then be shown. So for me this fourth scandal So I had the intuition that this is my scanner, because this is the diversity of every creativity.

[45:54]

This is so rich, it is not only bound to the sensual perception, but the whole spiritual world also comes with it and, as you say, the all-realistic mind. And I just think that's wonderful. I would like to start with you now, but unfortunately I have to leave now. I wish you all the best and thank you all for everything you have done for me. Thank you. What I find very important about what Doshi has described about the fourth scanner is that it is the scanner of concept formation and that there is no concept only, but that it is immediately a network of concepts that points to one another and that one can form a feeling for this network.

[47:41]

And I think the difference, the main difference between the fifth and the fourth scanner is that you also have this network that unfolds, which gives the space to unfold itself, so to speak, without being identified with it, without being actively mixed in by something and saying, well, this yes, this no, or this is part of it and this is part of it now, but rather that this network looks at it and gives it space and, so to speak, allows this feeling to develop from it for this network, for this tissue, which, because it gets space, can develop a little differently than if I react directly to it and say, okay, I want to have that and that's good and with that I identify myself and I shouldn't do that. Andreas, I'm afraid you won't be able to hear me.

[48:58]

But I can hear you. Maybe it's the space where the thoughts become quieter, they step back, they become quieter, a little bit of thinking without thinking or something like that, which is also expressed sometimes, because where you open up, where you can quickly grasp your thoughts, but you can also let them be, and where you sometimes feel like you are being misguided, with this room, where you realize that you no longer have everything ready, or you don't even want to have it, and yes, you shouldn't really think like that, because you could, but you don't have to, you just have to accept it, Yes, but it's not neutral or anything like that.

[50:02]

But yes, sometimes it feels like you can no longer discuss with each other or something like that, that the things are no longer so ready. That's how it sometimes seems to me, because sometimes I have the feeling that you are a bit... I thought you said it. I think it's totally exciting with the association, because when you hold it in there and give it to the room, then you come ... I find it totally interesting what is developing there, what else is added to it, that you don't even think about it at the moment.

[51:13]

I think it's creative and exciting. and it is also a space, and there it is certainly also together with the therapy or with this free association of all joy where healing takes place, where simply again and again experiences come from childhood, and one thinks, why again, if one would take that into the fifth, then we already have it, and I know that, and it was all already there, but in the moment when I just give it again and again a space, that it can be again and again, a healing takes place, and that is ultimately also with a concept of this free association in the therapy. I have a question. When I was very tired, I had the experience that the conscious mind, the dream-minded mind, started to mix with me.

[52:17]

I am also associated with the mind of Thais. because it is not conscious thinking, it is just dreaming, and I suddenly notice that it is not dreaming at all, then it goes back a little bit, so it is like a straw, yes, then it is on the associative side. I find it even a great enrichment to find such dream sequences with a room in it, because I was previously awakened from a dream and I sit down again and just leave pictures of the dream or memories or whatever has happened and just give it a room again.

[53:19]

That is once very healing and that is also this associative spirit In the end, it is also a theory of dreams, that what we have not processed is simply looking for a room in the dreams. This is one theory, there are many theories, so the dreaming spirit can also flow in there and simply find a room where he can be. Yes, then things combine, things that you wouldn't normally combine. That's very exciting. And that's also the big difference between the evening sasen and the morning sasen, for example. In the morning, when you get up earlier, it's much more a mixing, of the dream spirit and associative spirit, and in the evening it is rather a coming down and letting the thinking spirit really be the thinking spirit, and then it is not so easy to simply create this field of associations, because it is still far too full of what has happened during the day.

[54:35]

I think that this fourth season has a very great potential, precisely because in this fourth season the suffering begins, so in these connections, in these feelings, in all these memories, this suffering begins, and we have the potential, when we notice it, and, as Dieter Rösser-Schengen said, we can counteract this network of concepts and, above all, relationships, so to get into this river and let this blubbering, which has already happened, this getting up, just happen, and then this network actually starts to show us things that come together on its own. And in these remarks, and then accept it

[55:49]

the penetration of this pain, which we usually have, what we call childhood pain, or what God says through all relationships that arise, is that connected with jealousy, is that connected with psychic suffering. In this penetration there is then the possibility to transform and to transcend. And that's why for me it simply has a very, very important, very great interpretation, like this mountain-climbing, this free association, to go there, but not in a cognitive way, as it happens in therapy, but to follow it in my body and to see what rises next. In this relationship, I will then give space and follow you, and you try to understand the root exactly, although it can cause a lot of pain, but nevertheless there is a great possibility in this pain.

[57:04]

I think that what I read yesterday, what Jonas already mentioned, with this flu, actually primitive concepts, i.e. first concepts according to Roshi, and there is no second one that does not relate to a second concept, and where we have not yet ploughed through this, and for me that was the great picture, it is not yet ploughed through, so I plough the associations or the memories with thoughts, and in the fourth scale In my case it is rather the case that there is hardly anything in common. I think I usually find myself in the fourth stage when nothing special happens, when I think, oh, this, this, this, and this is really, as I see a network there, I would have to

[58:11]

somehow have something to bite on, or for example, I also did that in the practice period, because there is simply little action, there is always an hour or so, and suddenly I had more room for associations that I did not have otherwise, so there were also beautiful childhood memories, and that was my topic, and today I am having a nice childhood, and this is something new for me, that suddenly things arise, just as it probably happens with women on the sofa, I don't even know if they just come like that, and there I can imagine that I am also a little bit So that I just give a word and then look what comes next. So what's underneath or what I don't know yet.

[59:16]

Most of the time I find myself in a deep field where there is simply nothing. I go through the corridor and there is something that I dreamed of and that makes a click, these are very individual, as well as primitive individual concepts. I have a question about the pandals. Pandals, in this skanda there are also impulse of action or impulse of will to be placed, and what I have read now is that the action usually takes place in the consciousness, so that's really quite clear how it is with the action.

[60:23]

That's directly to what you're saying. My feeling right now is that in the fourth skanda, something like concretizing the motivations or something like that, because in this fourth skanda it becomes clearer what I actually want, how I stand on these things, so to speak. So when you say beautiful childhood memories, For example, in your memories, what you thought was beautiful is already emerging. There is this connection that has happened there. Your daughter, for example, can also emerge from there. Someone recently told me that you are particularly happy with a certain smell and then you could look for more of that smell. At least that's how I understand it. The way I want to integrate myself into the world and what I want to avoid and so on, the things that are there somehow, they form out of it. I somehow felt that because of my own motivation. Where does my motivation actually come from?

[61:36]

then I have the feeling that I can follow it very, very deeply. But if I follow it very, very deeply, then at some point I notice that it dissolves from the world. Then I only feel the feeling that something is missing. But then I don't know exactly what I'm missing. It's just the feeling of missing. There's a space that I know, at least I've never tried to talk about it, but there's something where I'm like... My wishes are projected on the outside, on certain people, from whom I am looking for something. You don't look for recognition from all people at the same time, for example. they become more concrete in this fourth skanda. But it's still a bit like, as Rashi describes it, the difference is this primitive consciousness versus the foreseeing, what makes the world foreseeable, the predictive.

[62:58]

I think that's such a great word, that the fifth skanda is where the things really are entities. And that's the world out there, in which I can act, which is predictable, which behaves according to certain patterns that I know. And I myself am a kind of entity, and things are also entities. And then I really start to believe that these motivations or these feelings that I have are like impulse actions. that it can somehow be fulfilled in the outside world, so to speak, that I can find it there. So I experience something like that. I don't know if there's probably more to say about it, but something like that. It also opens up a very large space for contemplation, the associative, associative, the other is. actions that you do in retrospect, even if they have been there for a long time, that you simply, that you then suddenly suffer again, and that you regret again, and that you rise again and again, this regret, and that is also a process of healing.

[64:11]

Could you maybe write down that what is unsolved is being shown there? Gregor and then Gregor. I try a little bit to remove the concept of thinking from the fourth scale, because often people say that thinking without thinking or letting the thoughts pass by, that would be then ... and then many people say But I have so many thoughts, but they don't mean thoughts, they mean mental formations. These are not thoughts yet. We are also talking about thinking, but we mean many things. For example, associating is with their activity. I'm more familiar with the term hallucinating.

[65:22]

That's more like it. Or memories. I think the Dürtel scandal also has different qualities. Where do these mental structures come from? Some come from the memories. some from hallucinations, dreams, some from associations, because you immediately have an association with the door that opens you up from the reality, and yes, that remains metallic, and that helped me to get rid of thinking. You don't have to think about it, but it doesn't work, it's a paradox for many. Before you said that there is the inner world in the outside world,

[66:37]

and if it is possible to stay on the edge of the view, in observation, then I can observe inwardly, and then all kinds of things pop up on the surface. And then, in English, ideas, creativity, the sphere of dreams also belong to me, in this area. And they are well, they can be well thought out, it is not thinking. It can be thought out as well. And the cause can be very different. When sitting down, you know it, you sit down and blop, blop, blop, blop. It can be that I was introduced here.

[67:45]

That was a project, a physical memory. And what I mean is that there can be no memories from within, and this concept, which you spoke of earlier, of the memory consciousness, I find it very good, very good, that there is this inner mirror, where involuntarily or through impulses from outside, or, however, thinking that activates something new, and depending on Some things fit me, some things don't fit me, some things are neutral, some things work for me, some things work for me, depending on the situation. So, I would say that this is my experience, it comes from somewhere, from some things. Our consciousness then plays a thread out of it.

[68:55]

Yes, when you said that consciousness plays a thread out of it, from here then this information of the rules, because something, for example, always appears again, always looks for this room, And from there to go into consciousness and really think about a concrete, different course of action, how you could really plan that and say, okay, but in the future I'll just try it like this, because I've got so much information, I have to do something with it. change my behavior and I play it in my thinking consciousness, where I really give into the future and predictably do the whole thing, then I play it through, then I go into the fifth

[69:57]

And then it can also be very fruitful that I really develop a concept from it and say, okay, I'll just try it tomorrow, the day after tomorrow, and just think it through. Nothing speaks against that. I'm so relieved now. I have always been indebted to this Skangla. I didn't even know that it was a Skangla. And I always thought, you're not sitting right, because so much is going on with you. What I noticed, there is such a difference from home in the room. And when I think of Sechin here, In the Sashim, very deep things come up suddenly, also through the Wendel sentence or through the Quran, depending on what Gunther Karlin is studying and researching, and then I always thought, well, how is that possible that such a story comes up now, or that this person suddenly appears very massively and repeats himself, and then I thought,

[71:11]

I didn't really know how to deal with it, if I was allowed to allow it and if I could pull it out of me. but it has probably happened in some situations. Has such a stretch with loyalty or with gratitude or something like that already happened? It is clear to me now in retrospect that it has to do with that. And at home when I sit on the bench, I immediately slip into it. I slip into it a lot, I think, and think, You don't sit at home as intensively as you do here in the group. But I notice that afterwards I always feel better. Yes, I feel as if I had taken an inner shower. And I can't tell you why.

[72:23]

There was a chaos of death and there was no red flag. It was all from different times and to the front and to the back and sadness and worry and joy and everything. and then you get up because it's time to go, because the gong comes, and then you think, well, it was so deep, we can't see it today, but it has an effect, and it stays the whole day, it's like there is a completely different clarity afterwards in the day, and this wakefulness and clarity remains, And I'm so happy now that I know that I can do it. Yes, I used to think, oh, I'm so far ahead of the others. Freud found a word for it. That's why he has, as I said, worked a lot with this scandal with the associative spirit. It's called the Katharsis. Katharsis, that's exactly what you have to write down.

[73:35]

Is that the right number? It's 20 and 15. And 10 and 15? Yes. Okay. Let's take a 10-minute break and then another 15 minutes. Okay. Yes. And you don't even need to touch it in here. It stinks. I would like to finish before you all disappear. Unfortunately, I now have two very late office announcements. It took me until the last minute. We have somehow clarified a few things in advance. I have just finished my working hours. I say that to the others separately who are now changing, but it is the case that Otmar has not asked for a fee for this seminar, thankfully, to make it possible that many people can come to this event as much as possible, that we can offer it as cheaply as possible. But that's why I'm going to be in the office right now, also in Essen immediately in the office, otherwise you could find me at any time.

[74:41]

And who would like to leave a free donation, then I'll just put it anonymously in the chat and then we'll collect it. Otherwise, you're not welcome. That's one thing. And the second thing is, we have these recordings, and you can also make a list with Jonas or me. It's there, exactly, and we'll put 20 up there. But it's just a work of art. You are welcome to sign up if you want to see the recordings of Alinor in the evening.

[75:17]

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