and the consciousness of it. And that these blissful moments we can deepen by zazen. And being confused as I am, I was thinking about that we were not talking about time, but about non-time. Mm-hmm. And we had also the question about that, but by what you said till now it's almost... Just now you mean?

[01:10]

Yes, this afternoon it's answered. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Okay. We have also talked a lot about time. I especially kept in mind the connection of the fact that the time is lost, or goes away, or dissolves, and a different sense of time, which is perhaps now meant with the sense of time of existence, gets more and more intense. You couldn't explain it yourself? There is a connection that we found between the dissolution of the time of a clock and the intensification of this existence. and the intensified existence time.

[02:32]

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. A lot of us experience pressure because of scheduled time. But within this pressure there is also very intensified experience. As if the time would be taken away so that we can experience it more intensely. And that is very ordinary with schedules, with timetable, but also with time before dying.

[03:54]

And this losing of time was also experienced in a very different culture, in a different being of time. Losing you mean being free of? No. Changing. No, kind of the feeling of not having time left. Oh, being out of time. Yes. Yeah, okay. Out of time. Not enough time. Yeah, not enough time. Also, dass einfach so viel Zeit war, dass so viel Zeit gegeben war, dass sich eine Art eigener Ordnung plötzlich eingestellt hat, die dann auch wieder stimmig wurde, unabhängig von der Uhrzeit. So there was a specific range of time that was given and that kind of fit regardless of the real time or of the time of the clock.

[05:02]

You know, what I hear when people speak to me about having lived much of their life in Eastern Europe? They often miss something, and it seems to me that what they often miss is a different kind of time, which they lose when they come to Western Europe. They recognize all the problems, but they still miss the kind of time they had there. Something else. Gruppe 4? We began differentiating two kinds of time, qualitative and quantitative time, qualitative and quantitative time, which mirrored in Greek culture that they had chronos and kairos,

[06:42]

by making examples of the no time or She said zazen would be most of the experience of no time, and then getting up and making easy things is the living time, the quality time. And when things too much straighten up, like supper has to be ready at 12 o'clock, and this and that has to be there, then it's the zazen. more quantitative.

[07:47]

So Gisela talked again about the example of the Zen and the question of timelessness, for example. That also needs to be taken into account, and to do it from a simple, qualitative point of view. So we ended up with some characteristics of quantitative or general time. more connected to thinking as future-oriented and as sequential, whereas qualitative time is more momentum and has more the quality of

[08:49]

being intimate with the objects or things one is doing. And one step deeper leads to some kind of selfless experience. And then the question came up, if this selflessness, is being the field, being self with the field together with the object. This is a matter of fundamentalism. As I don't count... Yes, we have differences. Characteristics between quantitative time characterized by thinking, which is very future-oriented, and qualitative time more than being together in what you are doing right now, that is, in the moment. one level of depth, or the other, that this is an experience of self-awareness, or greater orderliness.

[10:13]

And the question is then also, please, whether this is something fundamental. And... So then we characterized the ways to that experience of timelessness, and most of the people agreed that it is much easier when what one does is simple and somehow clear, and you reinvent yourself into what you are doing, And then the question came up, this aspect of qualitative time are more characterized as modes of experiences.

[11:38]

Why then call it time? Because we all have difficulties to say what is time. What is that strange word for it? And the next question was in connection with the question how thinking limits our experience, or it changes our mode of experience, what thinking is. Because here they came with... We were in a mode of speaking and sharing something, but... and it had, yeah, just thinking had a long dynamic, but at the same time there was another kind of sharing going on.

[12:48]

And then thinking wasn't just that rational lining up or sequentialization of thought, it was... It had another source. Where are the fringes? Fringes? Edges, you mean? The edges. Where do you stop calling it thinking and where do you begin calling it something? Okay. Thank you. Each group is discussing the whole of Buddhism, reality. Good. So is there something else now? Is there another group? How many groups are there? Four. Oh, four. I wanted to hear a fifth. We're the fifth.

[13:50]

Existence time. I didn't say existential time. But maybe in German it's the same, I don't know. Existence time. Speed. Feeling of speed. For example, while sitting here I feel different speeds in my body and thinking and speed and the body come together. Does it have to come together to touch something like existence time or is it the speed itself? Is it necessary to feel only one speed? What is the role of speed in existence time?

[14:55]

Conversely, when I feel different speeds, what role does that play in relation to time of existence? found it interesting within our discussion how the time perception changed while talking and there was one of us who shared her experience of her life situation, which was very touching, and I felt that we all entered in her space and time also. And then at another moment there was like a still moment, a very short moment Shared time-spot.

[16:12]

Shared time-spot. Yes, also in the group it was interesting to feel during the discussion how the perception of time changed, once when one of us shared from her very personal life, and where we all, I think, were involved in her space, her time. where something changes in the room and also once, where there was no one talking for a moment, and such a divided time point in the room. And my expectations, that's all. We were also surprised about the example of firewood and ashes. I was thinking about if this has something to do with renunciation, to somehow let the firewood go, or something like this, to come to the ashes and not to cling to their belonging together, as I would usually say.

[17:34]

Usually you'd say that... Usually I would say that ashes are the... come from fire. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm asking myself if this is a kind of... if this has something to do with letting go, just letting go this continuity thinking, this perception of continuity to come to the point that there's firewood and there's ashes and they have their own state of... In our group of three, there were some who were surprised by these examples from Roshi. They said that ash is not necessarily the future of firewood. And I asked myself if this could have something to do with this denial. In the flat sense of time, Of course, ash results from burning of firewood.

[19:12]

That's taken for granted. No one's denying that. But that doesn't mean that the future of firewood is in ash. Or the future of the forest is in firewood. So the point of it is the disjunction of these two views. For instance, if you think your life now is ash and your childhood was firewood, And you've burned up your childhood. It's probably not the case. You're not the same person as you can't predict exactly what you are from your childhood. If you see that your childhood has its own past, present and future, and particularly if you're a psychologist, it's very helpful, because you can see the future of the child in the adult, which is not the adult.

[20:40]

It's something in conversation with the adult, but not the same as the adult. It's interesting. It's been on the news recently. I don't know quite what sense it makes. They have this gene, you know, genome project to classify all the human genes. And supposedly they have discovered that humans have many less genes than they thought. We don't have many more genes than, I don't know what they say, a fruit fly. So you can't explain everything by genes.

[21:57]

So now the first thing they're saying is nurture must have a heck of a lot more to do with it than anybody thought before. Nurture versus nature. I suppose if the genes of the fruit fly produced our shape and the fruit fly in this shape had good mothers and fathers, it would probably be like us. Maybe some of us are actually fruitful. Who had good parents. Anyway, whether I'm not trying to speak about science right now.

[23:01]

But some sort of view like that is the occasion of being a human being which makes a human being. The occasion of being a human being. The condition. Now, this is good, our discussion. And what we are speaking about, what we all notice, is these different actual experiences of time. And you can have more unusual, more extreme examples to support this difference. I think of American football. I mean, there's some quarterbacks I'm surprised how little anybody in Europe knows about American football.

[24:21]

At Crestone, the Super Bowl occurs during practice period. And so everyone watches it. It's the only time we have television during the practice period. And some of the Americans are bored with it, they don't want to watch it. But often the Germans vote to watch it. But then you have to have two or three Americans explaining everything. Why did they do that, you know? And one of the amazing things about a good quarterback and a receiver is you have a whole bunch of very big guys

[25:24]

Trying to stop this guy from catching a football. And yet some kind of bond can occur between the receiver and the passer, the quarterback usually. That all this stuff is happening, he throws it where no one is. Just at that moment the receiver is there. This is more complicated really than the brain can figure out, I think even. This is entering into some field of shared time that these two have and they can sort out the times of the other people. Some quarterbacks have an extraordinary gift for doing this. And a friend of mine has made a kind of

[26:34]

I've even done a book about what athletes feel when they are in this, can do this. And they're often in an extreme state of clarity and engagement. Everything is very slow. Und alles ist ganz langsam. And their body just knows what to do. Und ihr Körper weiß einfach, was zu tun ist. So this is not just that when it gets busy and dinner is about to be made, you know, we lose it. If you can stay engaged in root time, fundamental time, often the busier you get, the more slowly everything appears.

[27:53]

What characterizes the athlete in a situation like this is a highly detailed engagement with everything. And I think of a story I read, I don't know, an anecdote I read a year or two ago. I think about the British people W.H. Wusten-Oden. Wusten or W.H. Oden, A-U-D-E. And he was with a group of friends. It was anyway a group like that, whether it was him or not.

[28:56]

whether it was he or not. And suddenly they all knew what each other was thinking. And nobody could... No one... What can I say? No one noticed it, everyone knew it. And it was again this feeling people have sometimes of stopped time. There was movement, but everything was occurring in some kind of vast stopped time. I remember there were like four men and two women, something like that.

[30:18]

And then someone else came. Then it was noticed and gone. And what was interesting is that they were so startled by the experience As they let it subside, it took them about two weeks before they'd speak to each other about it. And they discovered that each one knew what the other one was thinking about. He only checked it up with, I think, two people, but And this experience, in some ways, was something wonderful and unusual in their whole life. And had that quality of being able to change your life. And these were quite cultivated people who were involved in poetry, nursing their own consciousness.

[31:50]

And still this was a very unusual experience. Okay. If you practice, this isn't such an unusual experience. So seed, the basis of sangha, is something like this. It may not be so dramatic. And so highly tuned. But it's what we assume. Okay, so the point I'm making here is, okay, we've all noticed that these different kinds of time exist. And we treat them as unusual experiences.

[32:50]

And we notice them in contrast to our usual experience. They occur sometimes in unusual circumstances, like a forest or a crypt. Okay, now, what's the point of our talking about this? The point is to shift your view. So that the time you expect is not general time. But the time you expect is fundamental time. Okay. Now, what does that mean? And the practice of Zen and what Dogen is trying to say in the Genjo Koan and the Uji Vassical is to shift, is not to give you some special experience, but to shift your viewpoint.

[34:12]

Okay, and... And so he may give you some unusual examples, but the point is not the examples, but to shift your viewpoint. Okay. So, if I'm sitting here with Iris, I assume fundamental time is... the basic condition, that there is some quality like that group of British poets of already knowing. And a quality even among ourselves of already knowing. And practice is to shift to that as a view, independent of whether you actually experience the connectedness.

[35:34]

So I assume most people were brought up to assume we're in general time together. A practitioner stops thinking that way, and assumes we're in fundamental time together, each in a different time, a different time which is also simultaneous, But not simultaneous from moment to moment. Simultaneous one way, sitting here in front of each other. But simultaneous in a very different way when she's in the kitchen and I'm upstairs. In general time, we're in the same time whether I'm upstairs or here.

[37:04]

So it means if I assume fundamental time, then I make use of fundamental time in a way that I wouldn't if I assumed general time. If I assume general time, then we're all here together. If I assume fundamental time, then we're all here together differently. And I can be involved in

[38:05]

maturing that fundamental time in a different way with each of you. So it's a kind of, it's a shift in view. Not necessarily a shift in experience. But the shift in view makes a different experience more likely. Am I making sense? So I'm not asking you, oh, have these experiences. I'm asking you to shift your view. Maybe you have some experience that's different, maybe you don't. Vielleicht habt ihr andere Erfahrungen, vielleicht auch nicht.

[39:12]

I didn't bring a watch today. What time? Five to six. Oh, just like yesterday. Five to six. We have half an hour more. Time will tell. Die Zeit wird sagen. But I really do emphasize fundamental time. But I do have the experience of very, very often waking up at exactly six hours to the second. Often as if I'm in some sort of conjunction with the clock. So it doesn't mean this averaged, the averaging of simultaneous time is not actual in some ways.

[40:15]

is not part of our actual experience. I would say something like we have an elastic field and maybe take in what we've spoken about today that elastic field is tied to the time of each object And tied to simultaneous time. And also tied to general clock time. And we shift our emphasis within this elastic field. Usually we don't entirely lose any one of the three points. But we feel ourselves way on one side, and then we can stretch back to the other side.

[41:47]

But that kind of experience, that kind of feeling, is really only noticeable and possible when your viewpoint is fundamental time, not general time. Okay, so let's sit for a few moments. By the way, various people, including yourself, had questions yesterday. And I didn't respond necessarily to any of the questions.

[43:00]

And so I would like part of our discussion to be questions you ask me directly and I try to remember to respond. And I would like it to be part of our discussion that you ask questions directly to me and then I answer them. If I'm able anyway. Yes, if I can. One of the roots of fundamental life is simply to be able to have mind and breath pretty much always together.

[44:59]

I think Dogen's phrase, abides in the phenomenal expression of, abides in the phenomenal expression of, is quite good. Firewood abides in the phenomenal expression of firewood. We can call this time. Iris abides in the phenomenal expression iris. And Iris abides in the phenomenal expression of non-Iris.

[46:21]

When we're more free of an abiding self. Abiding, staying in one place. Many things open up when we shift to the view of fundamental time. I found out the other day that Suzuki Roshi's main teacher of the teachings, Kishizawa Roshi, used to do something like this.

[48:31]

he'd have a kind of gathering where it was part Sashin and part seminar. I didn't know he did this. We're trying this out just because it seems necessary. So it's for me a kind of experiment. And so I also want to hear from you how you'd like this to be. And let me say, we have to be cautious and courageous. And using terms like quantity time and quality time. And Kronos and Kairos. Or fundamental and derivative. Or we can look at the categories of being time for Heidegger.

[49:40]

How we categorize these as A and B or 1 and 2 or something also changes our experience. So we have to make just to divide them into two kinds isn't the point. But how do these two kinds relate? We may have to use completely new terms or find some terms which help us see how they relate. Thank you very much. Thank you for the residents here who organize this, and all of you who are doing cooking and stuff.

[50:57]

Thanks a lot. And our translator. Hi. So how was your discussion today? He was group number three, and she will talk about what is going through her head. Oh, good, okay. It was very impressive. It was very different than yesterday. The discussion. Oh, yeah. It was the same group, but the atmosphere within the group was very different.

[52:11]

The basis for this difference was that they were questioning what are the conditions to be in fundamental time within the group. And we tried to remember what anchors do we have which lead us there. And we tried to remember what anchors do we have which lead us there. So the discussion was much slower and we didn't react immediately to one another but kind of there was another pace to it.

[53:17]

There was not one against one another, but there were kind of bubbles which kind of appeared here and there. Zeit wurde fühlbar. Ich hatte immer das richtige Gefühl, dass Zeit wie so ein Stoff oder wie ein Raum entsteht auch. And the time could be more sensed. It was more like a texture, like space. And we came into a common vibration. Why are they all so slept? Fell asleep.

[54:40]

But there was also one aspect which is to kind of become still and come to a halt. But we also were questioning whether it always had to do with slowness and it doesn't always need to be slow. And there were also some spontaneous, one came in and there was another speed, so he said something funny and so the speed changed. So the group in some way felt its way into what we're talking about.

[56:06]

Yeah. Must be good. Must well good sign. Yeah, does he? Excuse me? Well, let's start here. I was part of it. What was also interesting was that everyone had very different instruments to attack their inner time, their own time. each one had very different instruments to link into this fundamental time. One was speaking about a lot of pressure and going to the edge, experiencing it there.

[57:09]

For me it was important to see how I hindered myself to get to this state. There were memories about wisdom phrases, as well as physical memories, about the state that one has experienced, that one knows, and in which one can move through the memory more or less quickly. but also physical memories by which one can get into that state as well. Okay.

[58:34]

In the end, we reach... You were in the same group? I was in the same group, too. What I found interesting was, you don't have to comment that it's slowing down, etc., but... What I asked, excuse me, you weren't here, is that you speak in German first, and if you want to translate for yourself and not her, then... At the end, I would like to hear a reinterpreted lecture, more in the direction that we long for this fundamental time, but fail so often. So in the end there was another switch in the group, another aspect that there's a lot of longing for their fundamental time, but a lot of failure to really move into it. It was a nice atmosphere, and yet it was the question, are we in any way approaching fundamental time or not?

[59:49]

Okay. You know, it's a question you can't really ask yourself. Are we approaching fundamental time or not? Okay. A question like that structured on a yes or no itself is a problem. It's already outside the category of fundamental time. So what we know is we have one feeling that's satisfying in one way and another feeling or sense of time which is satisfying or useful in another way.

[61:18]

You kind of have to trust a sense of truth or something in your own body. Maybe this is what's being talked about. There's no way to measure this. You have to decide, oh, this is maybe what's being talked about. And that's appropriate in the whole of Zen practice. You have to assume Buddhism was made for human beings.

[62:24]

And you have to assume that you might qualify as a human being. So it must be made for you, too. So if you start thinking, oh, the great masters of the past, then you have a problem right away. This is made for human beings, so I'm a human being. So I must be able to feel, know what's being talked about. The more you have that feeling, Without some psychological inflation. Just a realistic sense of that. You begin to notice small things in yourself that, oh yeah, that might be it.

[63:33]

It's small in me, but it might be it. I know that when I first got a feeling of that, just another little tiny anecdote, But I remember it very clearly. Because it occurred in another kind of time. Like it's in a little bright ball in my memory. It had nothing to do with Buddhism. I was working as a waiter in a restaurant in Cape Cod in Massachusetts. And during college summer, you know.

[64:40]

And I was out on the roof above the entryway, which is a little slope, tarred roof. You had to prop yourself so you didn't slide off. And I was reading a novel by William Faulkner. And he had this immensely long sentence that was about half a page or more. Sometimes his sentences went on for two or three pages. So I read this sentence and I thought, I can't understand this. I'm simply not smart enough to understand this, I thought.

[65:46]

But then I thought just what I just said. I'm a human being. You wrote this sentence for human beings. And that's all I thought. I thought, he wrote it for human beings? I'm not that dumb. And that was a little shift in attitude. But it made a huge difference. I went back to the paragraph and it was completely clear to me. I didn't look at it with more effort or anything. It just was clear to me. And I've seldom since then had the experience of not understanding a sentence or something. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't get smarter.

[66:52]

But it was a different attitude. This is made for me. I'm a human being. It must be possible. From that point of view, it was clear. And if it was unclear, then I felt it's meant to be unclear. So that was all right. Anyway, something like that. Excuse the little... All right, something else. The group people will support her if she forgets something. Oh, okay.

[67:57]

I'm glad you have that confidence. We questioned what is meant by fundamental time. and then we did not enter into a discussion, but we decided that each of us should tell how he felt about this fundamental time, We just find that each person in the group tells how she's linking herself or himself to this fundamental time. It was valuable for me to see that each person had his or her own approach.

[69:07]

One person said that she is sort of withdrawing from the outside and going more into the inside. Not by using the senses. More like going in the midst of myself. Another person mentioned the breath as a very important aspect. To follow the breath, but mostly also the pauses between breaths. Another person was more this physical awareness.

[70:44]

And then from there the connection to the environment. And also connecting to the environment. For someone else it was the senses. To open the senses. For another person it was important to open up the senses and to come to a halt. So that the past, the present and the future is all contained within. And for another person it was important to switch between in and out, like a pendulum, without a concept.

[72:14]

Like an objective with a wide angle that lets in everything. And not wanting to find out what was there. comes and doesn't filter what's coming in. So the We talked that stillness and being attentive is part of this fundamental time. and then the maturing was another term that was part of the group

[73:20]

And also the question, what happens when I'm ripe? What is then when I'm ripe? And also the fear of becoming ripe. And then there was also the theme of aim, of an aim, having an aim. And there was the idea that we should give up a goal in order to be in fundamental time. But then we also talked about how it is to have a direction in life and have goals, but still let go within having the direction.

[74:48]

At the end it seemed that this was a big topic, There is a tension between having a direction or maybe an intention and on the other hand letting yourself be free, as we do in our society. We have to endure a lot of tension, especially the question of trust. Okay, there was also the tension, having a tension to hold, having a goal and direction, and how to manage holding this tension. Both at once. Yes, both at once. So finally there were sentences from the Bible which appeared.

[76:11]

So like, don't worry about tomorrow. Or the birds, they don't sow, they don't harvest, and they still get. Oh. There is no tomorrow. Can you help me? I'm going to... And there was a very lively and hopeful atmosphere that we will find a way. Oh, this is good, yeah. And at the end, there was the common wish that we would like to know more about each object has its time.

[77:34]

Okay, thank you. Does the group want to support her? She was perfect. That's from the Bible too, isn't it? Let there be light. So I'm still hoping some of the people who haven't, as you might guess, who haven't spoken will say something. Akash? I wanted to prepare a little bit for you.

[78:35]

I'm not prepared. And that's why I asked you. Okay. My personal question, which has been bothering me lately, is why do you talk about time and not about the spirit? And it's also for me to find out what the difference is between My personal question is, why are you talking about time and not about mind? And what is the difference between fundamental time and fundamental mind? Okay. I'll come back to that. I'm not prepared.

[79:57]

So another group? Thank you, Aakash. Yes? So you were in the same group? I couldn't give it to him, but to read, right? We have, I think, Also the question again, what is this fundamental time and how can we pass it? I think that has always mixed up like that. So that would be the discussion, maybe at the end, how can we stay in it?

[80:58]

But right at the beginning it was also a question for us. for us in the beginning and also a part of any discussion. I think it was a mixture of still asking ourselves what is meant by fundamental time and looking for things or how to get into or to stay in this fundamental time. Someone said that, for example, after a longer period of practice in quests, a completely different or a completely different being, which can be described in the following way.

[82:02]

You are much less hectic, you almost feel like you are impenetrable and you have this feeling that you have nothing to do, even if you do exactly the same thing as before. In the beginning there was one person saying that after a long period of practice in Creston there was a totally different feeling of being, which could be described as being less hectic, feeling of no one can really attack you, you're feeling really safe and secure. that there is really nothing to do, although you may be really doing exactly the same as you did before. And one of the reasons may be that in this practice you have this

[83:06]

a regular schedule, you don't have to worry about it and you come with the time to another time. One of the reasons why you may get into this different kind of state of being may be that you have this regular schedule, you don't have to think about it, and it's also very different from what you normally do. to what is different from what we normally do. That was actually an important point later on, that we have actually always found that we should break through habits or habits-based behavior. That can be something like that maybe in the middle of the city center, through the shopping street,

[84:14]

go through very slowly and thereby get a very normal posture, that maybe when you go to work, that you need a different time every day, time in the sense that you go fast and slowly once, once you need five minutes, sometimes ten minutes, but that you again come to a different time. connected with this doing something which is not from your habits. We later also discussed that it may be really useful to really put some effort into doing things in a different way than you normally do them. For example, really walking slowly while being in the midst of the city center, being lots of people around you and just by walking in a different way you have a very different perception and feeling of what is going on.

[85:35]

Or maybe when you go to walk go to work, you take different time each time, so that one day takes five minutes or ten minutes, but walking slower or faster, and while doing that you have also a different kind of perception each day, what you're doing. Sounds good. And another experience was that also a person having a practice period, I think it was also in Kresten, that he was a model there, I think, of the center or something like that. Can I tell that myself? Yes. Yes, a little key experience for me was when I was in Crescent two years ago and was supposed to build a model that a small group of people had made.

[86:46]

Maybe you remember two years ago I had to make a model. I was allowed to make a model. We asked you because you're so good at things. And I was really busy hurrying up and down and asked Rhonda to get me a dispenser from church. Short time after I got the answer, it wasn't morning. Stop it. stopped at model building.

[87:50]

And the first, I think, 13 minutes, I got angry and went, what? And in the first moment, I got angry. And then it came to me that it was really like the interface between general time and fundamental time. So I have to finally express to me like... Kriste, a cotton point of these two kind of times and you kicked me back into fundamental time. Oh, I did. I thought it was Rhonda. Yeah, yeah, okay. Maybe two, three... The things that have helped us from our group, even though we didn't know exactly if it was true, but we accepted it.

[88:54]

These fundamental times have come. One example was from an experience at Thich Nhat Hanh. We had some more examples of maybe how to get into this fundamental time although we were never sure whether really we're talking about that but at least we suppose we are. And one example was from an experience by Thich Nhat Hanh. When he's using that ringing bell, everybody's standing still. Or when the telephone is ringing, everyone's also standing still, waiting for the bell to ring three times. And that's also something you can practice when you're at home.

[89:56]

And it was useful. Something else was then also, as I said before, simply to return to the calm breathing, and another example was that one can simply choose the meditation on an almost any object. An example was called a stone, and that you try or think about what you can bring in connection with the stone, how the stone was before and all kinds of considerations that you can make with it, and that was also something that did not necessarily have to be in the meditation attitude, but something that you might also do in the lunch break or somewhere else, another example two other examples were first was already said really just coming back or using that calm breathing and the second was doing a meditation on an object which

[91:13]

and nearly everything the example used was a stone that you try to bring things in connection with that stone, maybe what that stone has been like before, or whatever comes into your mind. And that can be also something that you do not really have to do while you're in the sitting where you normally do your meditation, but that can also be done, for example, during a lunch break or anywhere else where you have just a little bit of Something else that was said was that someone almost feels a longing to perform an activity with dignity. Another point that was mentioned was that there was really a deep wish to do something with dignity but this somehow

[92:27]

has a connection also to be or to get into this fundamental time. And in the end we actually came to the conclusion that that things like sleep deprivation, hunger and drugs are also methods to get there. Shortly afterwards, the word Sashin appeared. Maybe one more thing, but this came up very briefly in our group, which was called an example when people who, for example, shoot down from a mountain with a snowboard and do something extraordinary and have this almost special kick and are really in this thing and are in a completely different time, that this is also fundamental time, that they also go into it.

[93:56]

That was a point that I could see in a smaller group at least. So in the end we also had things like drugs, like really being hungry or being forced to not have enough sleep, that these are also methods or ways to get into maybe that state and then somehow shortly after that what session was used. Which is somehow also a way of force to get into a different state by what I said earlier to have this regular scaling what you know. and a little bit just in a short group or just two persons of that group something just came up that maybe persons or people doing extreme sports like for example with a snowboard going down from a very high mountain and jumping that down

[95:18]

And I've also heard really somewhat talking about that, and that he really described it as being really in a totally different time, and that when he got down, when those slopes weren't anymore that...

[95:34]

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