Well, Saschin, even for those of us who are familiar with Saschin, Saschin is a dramatic break with our usual life. And For it to be practiced, we need to make use of this break. And the break shift from our usual life takes many forms. Now there's a number of things I would like to see if we can speak about practice with this Sashin.

[01:04]

But Sashin for me is I'll break too in the sense that I don't have something to present to you. But I'd like to find a way to discover something with you together. Some new, for me, new direction or new way to look at practice. To enter a practice. Now I remember when I first went to Japan, I went on a ship and we went into Yokohama.

[02:15]

And in Yokohama is the other, I think it's Yokohama, the other big... Soto Shu training temple. Called Sojiji. The other one is Eheji. And you know, I had... This is just an anecdote. And I had... For me, my taste required that things be simple. And an alternative to our society. So it may seem strange, but one of the things that attracted me to Sukhiroshi and Zen practice is that I could take my shoes off.

[03:23]

We walked around the Zendo barefoot. And I have, since sometime in my late teens, I don't think I've ever worn shoes. I always wear sandals or something like that. It's a little odd, but it's some kind of still, what should I say, retrogressive behavior on my part. Anyway, so I went to Sojiji and here I entered this ornate world. I got off this freighter in Yokohama. And I'd lived on freighters for two years, some years before.

[04:42]

So I liked just being on ships and in the ocean. And so I went in this temple and it's all gold and brocade and I thought, oh my gosh. I thought Zen was simple. Yeah. But now I feel, although I don't think one has to go that far, Now I feel that entering the Zendo or entering a temple, you should enter another kind of world. And that has to be emphasized somehow. We need to break our patterns in order to discover our virtues.

[05:53]

So a lot of what you see here, those of you who are unfamiliar with formal sashin, Ostensibly it has something to do with religion. But is probably more than anything a way to create a different kind of world. So we eat differently. And we have different rules about how we come in here, etc. And you're given this little tiny space to live in for seven days. Now I've worked with two words which I've come nowhere near to using up.

[07:04]

I've worked with two words. Yeah. nourishment and completeness, to nourish and to complete, Yeah, and you may be tired of hearing about it, some of you, but anyway, I have not used up these words yet. They always inform my practice and help me check up on my practice. And recently I've been adding two more words. alignment and attunement. So I want to find out with us this week what what the provisions of these words are.

[08:24]

First we can ask, what is sashin? What is this thing we find ourselves in now? And then I want us also to be asking ourselves, what is our human life? What is being a human being? And what is this world? We need some opportunity to ask ourselves this kind of question. And sashin is a chance to do that. And to look at for you what is your human life and this world.

[09:34]

And let's find that in some tension with or relationship to what Buddhism finds as a human life and this world. Now I also want to work with what is virtue? And partly I want to do this because I found that when I mentioned the word recently, there's a lot of objections to it. And there's quite a negative feeling about, for many people, the idea of virtue. I know.

[10:36]

I remember once, years ago, I was in my early to mid-twenties. And I was hiking at around 10,000 feet in the Sierras with two friends. Ich wanderte mit zwei Freunden in der Sierra, so über 3000 Meter hoch. And they said, she was a poet, they were husband and wife, and she was a poet and he was a potter and now a sculptor. Sie waren ein Ehepaar und sie war eine Dichterin und er war Töpfer und inzwischen ist er ein Bildhauer. And he and I worked together at a job. Anyway, they asked me at 10,000 feet, what is Zen about? And I said, sincerity. And they cracked up, they laughed. How schmaltzy, you know, they say. Yeah. I was quite embarrassed, I didn't know what to say.

[11:57]

So maybe now, if they were here, I could try to answer them. The word virtue, as I understand it, means something like world link. It means your story or your life is linked to the world. It also means the realm of life or the age of life, something like that. So one of the main... So anyway, I'll have to approach this from several directions.

[12:58]

See if I can find a feel for it and create a feeling for it. Yeah. So... We could say that the main virtue of practice is acceptance. Now, when I brought this up recently, people have rightly been worried about, you know, like acceptance of governments and social evils and so forth. And that is, you know, a legitimate concern. And certainly a big mistake I believe that Japan has made.

[13:58]

Which is to identify the virtue of practice the virtue of acceptance with acceptance of the emperor and war and so forth. But that's acceptance as a social rule. Societal rule. Not virtue as a practice. Or acceptance as a practice. So acceptance is To just accept the first movement in any situation is to accept it.

[15:08]

To accept is to enter a situation from the bottom. And to enter down into a situation. So it's a way of entering and then looking from inside a situation out. But we accept and enter within before we act upward or outward. I don't know if this visual imagery is useful, but I'll try to do my best to give you a feeling for what I mean. Even stronger than to accept is to give up. And I would like you to practice this week, or see if you can, I would advise you to practice giving up.

[16:29]

I give up everything. It's only for seven days. You can get everything back afterwards. Maybe. You might not want it all back, but for seven days just give up everything. Give up. You're only going to live in this little square you've got, each of us has. And give up to the schedule. And to whatever your work is. Find yourself inside it. This is a powerful catalyst to give up. I'd love to make my translator struggle.

[17:44]

Thank you. I give up. No, no, but if the translator struggles, then we all struggle. Because each of us are trying to translate this into some sense in our own lives. And the problem is not translation into English or German. The problem is the translation out of the language of yogic culture. I've got to get these ideas out. or practices out of yogic culture before we can translate it, and it's very hard to get them out so they can be translated. But we're at the interface of this adventure of these two civilizations meeting. Which each of us for some reason finds ourselves at this interface.

[18:58]

I hope because of the intuitive vision that so far neither civilization has done a very good job, well enough by us and the planet, so we need a third civilization. I don't think we need humility of goals. I don't think we need humble goals. It's interesting, in early Greek culture, Athenian Greek culture.

[20:06]

The ideals of frugality and humility just didn't exist. There were ideas of self-restraint. But not self-restraint in your goals. Only self-restraint in the means by which you accomplished your goals. These are virtues. It's a virtue to have the courage of your own power. It's a virtue to have the courage of goals befitting what it is to be a human being. But it's also a virtue to accomplish these with others.

[21:18]

And the ancient sense of virtue is nothing that's great can be accomplished by yourself. Sukhirashi used to say, Buddha is great because people are great. And only when people are great can we be great. So here I'm already playing with this interface of what Athenian Greek culture considered virtues and what we consider virtues. And I'm doing this mostly so we can notice for ourselves what we consider virtues. Do you consider the virtue

[22:20]

to have a great goal in your life. For example, to be a Buddha. Why not? If you don't have this courage of this power, practice is quite limited to well-being. But it goes against our sense of modesty. But here sitting on your cushion for seven days, you can be quite immodest. Or non-humble. No one will notice. Well, I don't know about that. But that's leavened by or moderated by acceptance.

[23:51]

Entering a situation from the bottom, from down under. entering up into a situation through giving up into it finding yourself immersed in it And in this case having the humility of not knowing what to do. First you have to find your place. Now each Each thing we do is an episode. An episode in our story. And I like the word episode. Ep is like epic or story.

[24:52]

So episode in English means to enter into So each moment, each thing you do, this sashin is an episode. An episode in your story. A complete little story in your big story. And entering the journey of your story. But in the current tree planters was published a lecture of Suzuki Roshi from many years ago in which I think he speaks about way-seeking mind.

[26:05]

Now, is way-seeking mind entering the way the same as entering your journey? Actually, it's not. So we need to perhaps, if you're really going to enter this practice, enter from your story. Maybe you have to really know what way-seeking mind means. It's easy to say these phrases like I'm practicing the way, but really we may be misguided in what we're doing. Now we're doing this sashin. Partly because So many people spoke to me about the memories they have of Haus der Stille.

[27:26]

And the Haus der Stille is, if not the birthplace of the Dharma Sangha Europe, at least the delivery room. The delivery room of the Sangha of the Dharma Sangha Europe. And I guess in that sense it makes Johanneshof the Kinderheim or the kindergarten. Which it used to be. So we've made it Buddha's kindergarten. Yeah, and Gerald is one of the kindergarten teachers. Yeah. But this seshin right now, what's happening right now, this week will one day be a memory for you.

[28:40]

When you're old, those of you who aren't yet, you'll look back and Say, oh yes, I remember that bust. Perhaps it will be the last sashin of the Dharma Sangha at House Jastilla. The ponds were all turned into log cabins. Anyway, you'll have some vivid... poignant, probably wonderful memory. Yeah, so right now we're each involved in an episode of our life. And strangely, somehow we're doing this together. And we need each other's help. Now one thing I've been emphasizing a lot recently as well, because it's central to Zen and because it seems to be where our practice should be at the present time,

[30:38]

Is mindfulness as mindfulness of mind itself? So what's mindfulness of mind itself? We have to give you a practice so you can have some experience of that. And we have to give you a practice so that you can get an experience from it. And again, to enter into this, it's the mind that arises on each occasion of perception. Now this is described from various points of view, three main points of view. And perhaps in the week I'll try to give you some specific understanding of these things.

[31:52]

But we start out with a kind of general understanding because that's sufficient to practice. And as you get deeper into the practice from a general point of view, The specifics become useful if you've heard them once or twice. Now, the specifics of the This seeing mind itself is pointed to by three practices, the Dattus, the Vijnanas and the Ayatanas. And today I'll mention them from the point of view of the Dattus.

[33:07]

Datu means variously root, element, source. Domain, realm. So the 18 Datus. It's interesting that there are 18 because really there's only, you can count them various ways. It's interesting that there are 18, but there are different ways to count them. Yes, it's actually quite simple what these 18 are. is there's the eye, and there's the object the eye sees, and there's the consciousness that arises.

[34:15]

That's three. And there's six senses, three times six is eighteen. It's that simple. Except to practice it isn't quite that simple. means you need to have a feeling for the eye consciousness and also the object that you're seeing presence. And then the presence that arises from the two. And as I've been presenting it recently as a Buddha food, As a part of a practice called the four foods. Meaning that If you want to nourish your Buddha nature, you nourish it through this kind of awareness.

[35:26]

What does a Buddha nourish? him or herself with. Seeing mind on every occasion. What does an ordinary person nourish themselves with? Seeing distraction and stories on every occasion. There's that kind of basic difference. And if you know that maybe You'd like to change your story. Because we are storytellers. But we have a choice about what kind of story we want to be part of. So Sashin is a chance not only to observe your story, And how it empowers you and may also corrupt or cripple you.

[36:33]

But here is also the possibility to wonder what story we are part of. And perhaps coming, hopefully coming to a new feeling of a new story we could be part of. Now in these, the four foods, these, this, I... The organ of seeing, the object seen and the consciousness that arises is called the meeting of the three.

[37:35]

And a phrase like the meeting of the three only helps you or reminds you to notice that on every perception, visual or sound or whatever. Now, the Now the virtue of this practice is to, we could capture in the words, complete before. In other words, this meeting of the three has to occur before there's any actual experience.

[38:45]

Before there's any actual experience. Or any fruit of experience. Now, this It's practice in a very practical sense. Going back to the word to complete things. You have a feeling of completing the meeting of the three before you do something. I came in earlier and I noticed Hermann's rachshuh was turned up on the back. So I straightened it. I hope he didn't mind. And I noticed when Gerald got up, his robe was all caught up to his bottom.

[39:48]

So he got up quickly to do something. It's quite normal. But unless there's a fire or something, we generally stand up and have a sense of completing each action. Now, I'm trying to give you a sense of what the craft of practice is. Here we have not the elements of atoms and molecules. We have the elements of the dhatus, which each dhatu, each domain where we live as a human being, Each tiny episode is completed before we do something next.

[41:06]

So it's a kind of pace. You stand up and then you go ahead and etc. Now the orioke eating is also a way to establish that kind of alignment or connectedness. So the bulls, well, you know, it's assumed in, again, I don't want to present yoga cultures as some ideal way of being.

[42:39]

Both of our civilizations, Western and Asian, have their problems. I've been speaking about the Greek, and we can speak about other times to look at the best of our civilizations. So what I'm looking at here is the Buddhist parts and also the best parts, as I can see it, of yogic cultures. So I want you to understand, I say that only so you understand I'm not putting down the West. I'm a westerner, I guess. But I don't feel that, but I actually feel this is just the potentialities to be human, western or eastern. Okay, one of the assumptions of the yogic culture is a complex language makes a complex brain or consciousness.

[43:56]

If you simplify language, you simplify the brain. the human intelligence. So language exercises and develops our mental capacities. So as you know, if you're familiar with it, when you pick the bowl up, you move it into the field of the body and back out and so forth. And you do things with two hands. And when you take the cleaning stick out, you... Anyway, you put one hand there and you put the cleaning stick toward it and so forth.

[45:05]

Any case. And also, when the server comes, the server stands directly in front of you to bow or directly in between if there's two people. We're not in a rush. Well, we might be. Our legs start to hurt and everything, but still, we're not in a rush. Don't speak so fast. This is a good example. When he speeds up, the translation, his reason he gives me is that it takes more German words to say the same thing as in English. That means he's valuing the logic is impeccable. But It means it's a logic based on that it's what we're really doing here is getting the information out.

[46:23]

But we're also getting a sense of alignment, of pace. So the translator should also translate the pace. Tempo is a funny word, but anyway, yeah. Sounds like disco tempo or something. Yeah. Anyway, and I know some people eat very rapidly. Now, the point is not to eat, we all eat. eat together one bite at a time and we all, you know, like some sort of robot. We could choreograph a musical comedy based on a Zen monastery.

[47:27]

Well, somebody beats a drum and everybody eats the same way. But we eat in some relationship to each other. And we're at different points in the orioke. But we don't also fold up our oriokis super fast. There's some kind of pace we also discover with others. So if I'm with here where we're not too experienced at it, I go very quite slowly and clumsily.

[48:27]

But if I am in a Japanese monastery where everybody is skill-fledged, I have to go very precisely and very fast. But I don't mix those two up. I don't do it that way here. Because the point of Irioki is simply to do things together. To discover the alignment of discover the alignment that allows us to truly help each other in a subtle way. And that's also like in the ringing of the bell for Zazen. We don't notice just how the bell is hit.

[49:29]

We also find ourselves established in the rhythm of the way the doan first picks up the striker, how long before we hear his robes rustle, and then the bells hit, and so forth. There's no alignment. There's alignment and there's out of alignment. But alignment just means we find our bodies singing together, not just our voices. We notice when we sing together whether we're singing together or not. But because we have such a mental culture, We don't notice so much that our bodies are always singing together all the time.

[51:09]

In Zen practice we could say is to hear this singing. We know when the person who hits the clackers who steps in the door. We can tell the feeling with which they stepped in the door. And we can feel whether they are standing on their own two feet inside themselves. And that inner standing should be present before they hit the clackers. Anyway, this kind of feeling of knowing our inner standing is Zen practice and Sashin practice.

[52:19]

To find what is our actual domain of our human life. And for these seven days to get a taste of it through acceptance and even giving up. Giving up into our own story. And openness to the possibility of another story. And giving up into our own immediate experience. Each thing, each moment as it arises. Thank you very much. May our intentions pass through every being and every place in the same way as the true disciples of the Buddha's Path.

[53:45]

Well, I don't know what you're going to say if I die. Oh, I don't know what you're going to say. You've got to be black. Vosul O [...] If you travel much, the guidance will always give you a good hope that you will be in worship, that you will be saved, that you will be blessed, and that God will give you a good hope that you will be saved. Vare mankenon shijujutsuro goto etari negawakwa nyorai no shinjesu iyo eshi tate matsuran.

[56:41]

I hope to discover the truth of the Tathagata as soon as possible. There are a number of koans in which the lecturer or the teacher comes in and then leaves immediately and on the way to change the light I thought maybe that would be a good idea.

[57:57]

But I wasn't sure you'd see the light. And usually in those koans he sits, the teacher, sits down first before he leaves. I wore this, and not that this is a fashion show, but I wore this brown robe because it's so much like the beautiful leaves that are falling all over. Yeah. Now, the... Practitioners here new to Sesshin or new to the Dharma Sangha had a meeting earlier today during the work period. And they had a number of questions which I guess I should try to answer. And I actually asked Gerald to see if there were some questions and there were.

[59:25]

And strangely, one of the main questions was about pain. Yeah. Anyway, so I'll try to say something. And why should we sit still? And what is a Buddha? Yeah, things like that. And why can't we eat more leisurely? Let me start with that one. I would never go into a restaurant and just say, well, for lunch I'd like a bowl of green corn.

[60:29]

But when I don't have any choice, it tastes really good. Of the various meals that I enjoy, with good food or with friends or sort of some kind of reverie where I work or read and eat slowly by myself. Among the various meals that I enjoy, the sashimi meals are among the top. Even the gruel is delicious at night. I like it best. And it's got to have something to do with the concentrated way we eat.

[61:39]

And if I want a leisurely meal, I wait till after Sashin. But they serve me, or they serve the abbot or the roshi last. So there will be enough food left for everyone. And so I'll be a little behind everyone so there's more time to eat. In a monastery, no one wants to be the last to finish. And to have everyone waiting for you while you're chewing on your green corn. So unless they feed the Eno or the Abbott or somebody last, who intentionally goes slowly, there's an unbelievable race to avoid being last.

[62:50]

You know, if you're last, everyone's sitting there and their legs are hurting. So, given how I used to eat in Japanese monasteries, we eat quite leisurely. At least I go pretty slowly. And I chew 15 to 30 chews on every bite. Which is the custom actually. Because it's the custom not to serve liquid because you digest better if you chew your food and don't wash it down. And there's more dignity when there's this pace of that comes when you chew 15 or 30 times.

[64:07]

I'm not sure all of you will enjoy sashimi as much as I do, but I hope you do. Some people wanted some basics of sitting posture. Of course, I mean In general, by the time you come to a sashin, you're supposed to have a developed sitting posture. Ideally, you've been sitting nearly daily for at least six months or a year before you come to a sashin. But of course nowadays when it's such, it's more of a, as much a lay practice as a monastic practice, that's sometimes not the case.

[65:31]

And it certainly wasn't the case for my first sashin. I'd only been sitting for, I don't know, a few weeks when I saw a notice on the bulletin board, that there was a sashin being, coming up. Well, in those days, nobody, I didn't know what a sashin was. I didn't even know what zazen was. I mean, this was, you know, 1961 and Buddhism was not well known at all. So I thought Sesshin was a misspelling of session, S-E-S-S-I-O-N. And I noticed a painter friend of mine, Paul Alexander, was going. It turned out to be a different Paul Alexander.

[66:46]

If it had been the Paul Alexander I know, whatever he could have done, I could have done. So I said I would go to this thing. I didn't know what it was. Well, I went and I started to sit and I found out what the schedule was. And after two or three periods, I had only one exclamation. Oh my God! What have I got myself into? And this is only about the second or third period. Anyway, I don't know why I'm still here today. So I've had to ask myself this question, why we sit still.

[68:02]

Well, we sit still in order to learn to sit still. Yeah, I mean... You don't have to be too smart. I mean, if I want to look at this stick, Carefully. It's called a teaching staff, a nyoyi. And originally, like many of these things, it was a useful implement. It was a back scratcher. And because it can reach anywhere, it became a teaching staff. But if you want to examine this, and it's also the shape of the backbone.

[69:08]

But if I want to look at this carefully I have to hold it still. And I have to hold myself still to look at it. And it's that simple. If you want to study the mind, which is very slippery, And you have to hold yourself still. There is no other way. Only when you are physically still can you really see the activity of the mind. And only through real physical stillness can you discover the stillness of the mind. The contagious stillness of mind and body. Now we also sit still because it is a way to merge, as I just implied, mind and body.

[70:49]

And again, it's a way to break the adhesive connection between thought and action. If you can really sit still through whatever comes up and know you don't have to act on it, that stillness which is more powerful than the impulse to act, really frees you to observe things without fear. Now, why pain?

[72:03]

Well, there's pain because our waking body likes to move. The sleeping body can be quite still. You can stay in one posture sleeping for quite a long time, maybe not eight hours, but several hours. And sometimes you can learn to be still in bed for eight hours or more sleeping. But as soon as you're waking, it's hard to do. What does that tell you? That it's the mind that's the problem. So how can you have an awake mind with a body as still as it is in sleeping?

[73:13]

As soon as you can do that, you open the barrier between waking and dreaming mind. Between conscious and unconscious and non-conscious. And the waking mind also doesn't like to be still. It likes to move around. So neither the awake body nor the awake mind like to be still. And then add to that the ego, which really doesn't want you to be still.

[74:17]

Because the ego knows it can't win a battle against real stillness. So the ego convinces you you have very important things to do. Or if that doesn't work, it tells you you're in agony. Most of the pain really has to do with our waking mind and body. It also has to do with the lack of the physical, energetic and psychological skills to manage pain. It is also energetic because as you learn to handle your energy you can handle or absorb or transform the pain. Okay.

[75:40]

And so pain is just part of unfortunately learning to sit still. Especially in a sashin, which is a kind of crash course. Now, could you learn to sit still slowly? Yeah, of course. But... Most of us wouldn't learn to sit deeply still without the help of 49 other people, or 47 other people in this case. And there's some quality of friendship that develops an intimacy when we sit together like this.

[76:51]

In that sense, this is really the delivery room of the Sangha. And pain is also a form of concentration. Now the main two qualities needed for Buddhist practice are courage and honesty. Now different cultures, different historical periods require different virtues. Buddhist culture and Buddhist practice And the ideal of what a Buddha is are based primarily on honesty and courage.

[77:59]

And the pain also makes us honest. And helps us develop courage. Let's come back to the idea of virtues again. A virtue is a virtue is a virtue is Our given dispositions are developed into virtues through practice.

[79:00]

In other words, courage is developed through acts of courage. Justice is developed through acts of justice. Yes, they're not given. At least in the way Buddhism looks at it, and also Greek culture, character is developed. And there's always judgment involved. In other words, two vices accompany every virtue. Courage falls between timidity and rashness.

[80:04]

And what's timid in one situation might be wisdom in another. So injustice falls in between suffering injustice and causing injustice. So this inner science of Buddhist practice is also involved in developing certain virtues. And the judgment of those virtues. And so perhaps Sashin and long sitting with the help of your friends is a way in this single lifetime particularly in lay practice, of facing pain, one of the qualities of a Buddha mind is an unshakability, an imperturbability.

[81:14]

And if you practice or live in a way to avoid suffering, this is not practice. Practice is how to transform whatever happens to you into practice. Now, if you want to have this mind which can face our life and what will happen to us and to others, It's very useful to be able to face pain. And it's not going to happen by accident. You have to practice at it. And I guarantee you it's useful.

[82:35]

It makes your life quite different when you can be in the midst of anything without flinching. Although it sounds like a male virtue superficially, actually women are better at it than men. It sounds like a male virtue, but women are better at it than men. So I'm trying to come at this from various angles. So let me come back to the basic zazen instructions. Again, practice is change.

[83:54]

And stillness in the midst of change. But even stillness is not absolute. It's a relationship between stillness and movement. And stillness is always relative. So what I emphasize is we're always talking about a relationship or a dialogue. So we can understand our posture as four postures. An outer posture and an inner posture. And an ideal posture and the accepted posture. And the outer posture is primarily, most of you know, is your backbone. A lifting feeling through your backbone and the back of your head.

[85:01]

And a melting feeling down through your body. And as your posture gets more developed and refined, It locks into an almost acupuncture-like With ears over the shoulders. At least smaller noses over the navel. And a little space between your arms and your body. Your thumbs touching lightly. Your tongue at the roof of your mouth.

[86:06]

Your eyelids in a posture which neither communicates sleep nor ordinary wakefulness. So we develop a state of mode of mind which is neither waking nor sleeping. That kind of thing is the outer posture. And the inner posture is the various states of attitudes of mind. Or counting or naming or following your breath. And it's your breath which joins inner and outer posture most fully. As you know, the uncorrected mind is an inner posture. So there's this dialogue between inner and outer posture.

[87:25]

And the dialogue between an ideal posture, which you're being informed by, and the posture you accept at each moment. Okay, so what is Buddhism? Buddhism is an inner science, a practice science, a practice knowledge, a knowledge practice. That's one thing Buddhism is. It's also a transformation practice. And they're interrelated.

[88:28]

And I'm talking to you about both. But mostly, for now and I'm giving you the inner science, the science practice, the knowledge practice. How we study ourselves. Now, it's both an inner science practice and a world view. And it is thought that without an accurate world view, your practice is always blocked. So Zen particularly emphasizes turning your world view, transforming your world view.

[89:55]

And most of the Zen sayings are meant to do that or give you that opportunity. Now again, I'm reading this quite interesting book called After Virtue, as you might have guessed. Yeah, that's what the name of it is. I think his name is Alasdair MacIntyre. Alasdair MacIntyre, yeah. Good Scottish name, like our friend here, Mr. McLean.

[90:58]

Well translated. Have you ever been to Scotland? Just made my way to England several times. Oh, no Scotland. No Scot would think that was... Anyway. Yeah. And in Homeric and the early Greek times, It was thought that society developed through what was called Aegon. In other words, conflict and contest.

[91:46]

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