stand under a waterfall. And this, if you know, Philip, is a reference to Taoist and Buddhist folks who stood under waterfalls to discipline themselves and so forth. And in Tassajara, there's a waterfall coming. A waterfall under which I rushed as soon as I could undress. The icy water falling from a height. Stung like hail. Yeah, he also wrote a little earlier in 1978. In reference to Suzuki Roshi's graying site. And there's a tradition or a famous koan

[01:21]

The Zen teacher has a seamless tomb. So he wrote, the shooting star flowers that Mama used to call birdbills. Birdbills. Beaks, birdbills. His mother called them birdbills. The beak of a bird, yeah. Like this, you know. Vogelschnabel. Vogelschnabel. Vogelschnabel. Bloom around the Hogback Graveyard. The hill was called the Hogback.

[02:33]

Blühen um den Hogback Friedhof herum. Suzuki Roshi's great seamless monument. Wild cyclamen. The flower. Just say it. Actually, as in the Palatine Anthology. Um... Palatin? Palatin? Just say it that way. In the Palatin anthology. I go home to mend my raksu with golden thread. Ich gehe nach Hause, um mein raksu mit goldenem faden zu flicken. So we assist you. Also wir helfen dir dabei, Philipp. Zen shin ryufu.

[03:36]

A handful of fire burning this phantom body. Ru Jing, Dogen's teacher, said, All things return to the one. Living is like wearing your shirt. Where does the one return to? Dying is like taking off your pants. When life and death are sloughed off, thrown off. And do not concern you at all. The spiritual light of the true path stands out unique.

[04:37]

Dun... Um... Dun... This is something Lu Ching said at a cremation ceremony. This whole thing. Oh, the swift flames in the wind flare up. Oh, the... All atoms in the worlds do not interchange. Original face. No birth. No death. Springs in the plum blossoms. Frühling ist in den Zwetschgenblüten.

[05:46]

Entering a painted picture. Eintretend in ein gemaltes Bild. So then we opened the door of this tube, which is like, sounds like a 747 jet engine. Dann öffneten wir also das Tor zu diesem... And they pushed the sweet guilt in this box. And we put flowers, we all went around and put flowers and raspberries around it. And offered incense. And we pushed him in this roaring tube. And, um, And everyone came up and we held hands and I pushed the button, closed the door and pushed the button.

[07:14]

And I found later that a few people were standing outside and watching the smoke. So when we say something like, death is like taking off your pants, living is like putting on your shirt. When we say, entering a painted picture. Spring is in the plum blossoms. Original face, no birth, no death. This is all poetry. There's no other way to say it. At least I don't think there's any other way to say it.

[08:18]

I often feel a poem is in you already. Or the seeds of it are in us. And I think it's a common experience when we... I think it's a widespread experience when a poem really comes to us. When we arrive at a poem or arrive with a poem, it's familiar. It's somehow already known. And it touches us because it's already known, but we haven't acknowledged it or seen it yet.

[09:38]

I remember once in San Francisco, years ago in the early 60s, I had this poem in my mind from a koan which goes, true friendship transcends intimacy and alienation. True friendship transcends intimacy and alienation. Between meeting and not meeting, there's no difference. Between meeting and not meeting, there's no difference.

[10:49]

On the old plum tree, fully blossomed, the southern branch owns the whole of spring. The southern branch owns the whole of spring. As does the northern branch. As does the northern branch. And so, you know, I was just... I know what street I was walking along. I was just somehow saying that poem. I know what street I was walking along. I hope it's the trash and not the building.

[11:50]

Another cremation. Yes, it's like taking your lingonberry. Tod ist wie die Flügel abzunehmen Anyway, so I, you know, something happened to me saying that poem. Because I was working on something. And the poem resolved it. And the poem found like a lock in the... A key and a lock.

[13:01]

Opened some inner poem. Or the seeds of some inner poem. And, you know, this is actually part of a koan in a book called The Iron Flute. And here I'm just trying to illustrate how Zen uses koans, uses poems. And the koan is about my favorite Dharma buddies. And this koan is about my favorite Dharma buddies. You all know them, Yun Yan and Da Wu. And Yun Yan, the duller of the two, is in our lineage.

[14:05]

But he was persistent. He didn't give up. And there's a lot of koans we use about those two, blood brothers and dharma brothers. Mark, one of them is, why does the Bodhisattva compassion have so many hands and eyes? One of them is this. Why does the Bodhisattva have so many hands and eyes? You know, it's... Bhagavad Gita Svaraya, or Kuan Yin, is depicted with sometimes a thousand arms, eleven heads, an eye in each hand. So Yunyan asks, Da Wu, why does the Bodhisattva of Compassion have so many hands and eyes?

[15:24]

And Da Wu says it's like reaching for your pillow at night. I think we write poetry like that, too. It's like reaching for our pillow at night. Well, and this koan from the Iron Flute... Yunian is sick. And Dao goes to see him. And says, where will I meet you if you die? Sometimes poems... Kind of reach us more when there's something serious going on, like maybe you'll die.

[16:27]

He said, so where will I meet you? I had some similar feeling in conversation with Sukhriyasi before he died. I asked him the same question. Anyway, so Yunian said, I'll meet you where nothing is born and nothing dies. And... And Tao said, you should say, nothing dies, nothing is born, and there's no need for us to meet. So actually I'm kind of like, you know, I'm a young, relatively young person.

[17:31]

And, you know, my sister's had a nervous breakdown. And I'm starting to practice Zen. And I'm wondering what to do with my life and, you know, living and dying and all that stuff. And this discussion of Dao and Yunyan is in my mind. At the same time, it's porn. It's part of the corn that's in my mind. And I was saying the poem to myself almost like it was looking, the poem was looking for something. True friendship knows neither.

[18:43]

True friendship transcends intimacy and alienation. Between meeting and not meeting, there's no difference. Zwischen sich treffen und sich nicht treffen gibt es keinen Unterschied. On the old plum tree fully blossomed. Am alten Pflaumenbaum in voller Blüte stehend. Spring, southern branch owns the whole of spring. As does the northern branch, owning the whole of spring. And somehow, this whole context, the poem drew out of me a real feeling that there was no difference between meeting and not meeting. And everything was fully blossoming everywhere. I've never been separated from that experience since.

[20:31]

And that's not, I can't also separate that from the poem. And I can't separate it from the street I was walking. And as Norman said, this profound connectedness appeared. Not as an insight, but as a realization. Meaning that it stayed part of me. It just wasn't something I noticed for a while. So I'd like us to break up into small groups.

[21:38]

And I'd suggest that you ask yourself in these small groups with others. Is there some phrase or word or poem that is called forth something unknown but familiar in you. If we think of the poem as really an inner poem, then the outer poem might just be a word or a phrase. So anyway, you might notice together

[22:39]

What kind of phrase or word or poem has brought some kind of acknowledgement into you? And that kind of reaching for your pillow in the dark, or reaching for your life or death in the dark is the realm of poetry. And certainly the realm of poetry is used in Zen practice. And so this whole use of just short phrases Not a whole poem, just a short phrase, is part of this realm of poetry as practice.

[24:13]

Excuse me, we're going on in such length, I didn't plan to say so much. Is there anything you want to add, Norman, at this point, before we break up? Do you think that's a reasonably good thing to discuss? Yes. All right, so why don't we have a half-hour break until 20 after, and then you guys can figure out how to divide up. Yes. Okay, and at some point I'll ring a bell or do something or other that gets us back together. Okay, thank you very much. Why don't we actually sit for just a minute? Thank you.

[26:29]

Well, we have a little time before dinner. Tomorrow morning, it would be nice if we could start fairly soon with Norman and some poems he wants to bring into our discussion. So for now, I'd like to start already with some kind of reports or discussion from the groups, if you want to share some briefly or at length. Jetzt würde ich gerne mit den Berichten von den Gruppen beginnen. Kurz Bemerkungen, die ihr habt, oder auch lange, worüber ihr geredet habt.

[28:58]

Okay. You can start. Yes. I don't see myself in a position to sum it up. We started We started to tell each other which words, which poems stuck stuck to us or yeah kept we kept in in our memory yeah and it was a true for everyone that

[30:19]

some poem or something had stuck with him. Yes, everybody affirmed that there are words, sentences, poems that had a big influence. that there are poems that accompany people for a long period of time. connected with the experience that the importance of parts of this change over time changes over time, the important changes?

[31:36]

Or that there are poems that had an important turning point in one's life already showed something that that had to be that actually only happened in the future and already developed. Press it. Yeah, an example was a mindfulness poem of Thich Nhat Hanh. that can be used to bring mindfulness and quietude into one's life.

[32:41]

I can only take a few more clicks. In some contributions people said that Poems bring back the freshness of a baby's perception. And yes, also from the participants the statement was confirmed that the effect of these poems requires them to address something that is already there.

[33:55]

And participants affirmed that the effect of a poem depends on whether it speaks to something that is already there. Yes, and I wonder if a part of this effect is due to the fact that poems break our language habits. Also, I ask myself whether a poem's effect depends on the fact that it breaks our language habits. Part of you. Yeah, I understand. Thank you. That was great. Someone else. We're going to have to start, have each group appoint a reporter.

[35:04]

Because I don't have to... I'm not a dentist. We have an expression, it's like pulling teeth. All right, Catherine. In our group, there was also an understanding that phrases and poems play an important role and accompany us. And some said that sometimes words or phrases kind of struck them like lightning and they had very physical feelings accompanying the words. And we also asked ourselves what is it that makes poems work in such a powerful manner And I think we went in a similar direction as what Peter just said.

[36:07]

somehow when we feel drawn to a poem and we might not even quite understand it but there is a feeling yeah in the poem there are the words and the poem expresses what i cannot express but i have had that experience only i don't have the good words that the poem has to express and so it's It is already there in our experience and we find it in the poem. In our round it was confirmed that grass, words and poems play an important role Everyone had examples that poems or parts of poems would accompany him or her for a certain time and play a real role.

[37:12]

And we asked ourselves, why do poems actually have this effect or that they have on us? And we meant that Thank you. Who's next? In our group it was also the case that each person had a poem or a phrase that had

[38:21]

had influence on them or accompanied them? But the discussion went at least in phases in the direction of how do we use language? What is language? What can language express? And where does language lead beyond what one can really express? But the discussion went into the direction of questions like what is language? What can be expressed in language? What does language aim at when it tries to go beyond language? And that language can be very helpful, but also an extreme hindrance. Okay? Yeah. It's the same group here?

[39:51]

We just found out that when you're able to leave or escape maybe the structuring of the language, just the norms of language and its structuring. With language you can enter a space in which you can make use of language in a playful way. And then you find yourself in a space of unintentional doing.

[40:54]

And that goes over the poem, the language, or over the art, you come into this space. Through the poem and its language, or language in part, you get into the space. And everybody in our group has a word, a poem, or a poem that was important. And sometimes, after a while, when you carry the word or the sentence with you, the meaning or the feeling or the knowledge comes later.

[41:56]

And sometimes only after a period of time or a long time, the realization of what the word, the poem, the koan carry comes to you. Okay, thank you. So there's only one group left, the shy group. Or the one that didn't talk about it. Which one is that? Okay. Okay. A lot of things have been already said, what we also talked about, aspects you have mentioned. I want to add maybe two things. We also talked about communication in general.

[43:24]

But the words that are spoken are only one one aspect or one part of communication. We get a lot of information in direct conversation from the outside of the language, for example through the sound of the voice. We get a lot of information, a multitude of information, for example, through the tone of a voice, through gestures.

[44:25]

So then going back to poetry, in the end we asked ourselves, when you read a poem, you only have the words. But so much more is carried in a poem that touches you, so much more than words. One attempt to explain what this might be based on was that was that posture of the poet's mind, or his state of mind, and his world of feeling that was present at the moment of writing the poem is present in the poem.

[46:17]

And that there is a longing that touches us in this poem, that it is about coming home at the same time and yet also being amazed at it. That there is a longing, a longing? What touches us in a poem is a longing that we have inside of us. And that makes us feel at home when we read the poem. And at the same time, it leaves us with a feeling of... ...pushing to me that everybody, it sounds like everybody has strong personal relationship to certain poems.

[47:47]

So how come poetry books don't sell better? There's a practical question from a poet. Maybe it's only true in the United States. And I think that the reason why maybe is that there's some sort of a barrier between our usual mind in the busy world and that place which we find in a poem. because you could pick up a poem, open a book of poems and read the poem and it could mean nothing to you at all.

[49:04]

This is not true of the newspaper. Even if you don't like what you read in the newspaper or you don't care about it, when you open it up and read it, you can read it. or the magazine that tells about the lives of the movie stars. You can read, you know, you open it up and you can read it. And these sorts of things harmonize pretty well with the kind of state of mind that we have in busy life. But because of the barrier between that mind and a poem, sometimes we open up a book of poems and we just can't get anything out of it. We can't be with the poem.

[50:24]

Because what we need to bring to it, we don't have at that time. Somebody brought up, I think you were saying, the idea of that the poem always involves a sense of play with language. And I think that's really, really true that when we have the mind of play, which means a mind of some freedom, flexibility and openness, then the poem makes sense.

[51:26]

So the question is, how could we melt away the barrier and be living in such a way that always not only does a poem make sense as a poem, but everything makes sense as a poem. So this may be a kind of impossible ideal. But I think it's something that one could approach, one can really approach. And I think one would approach it by recognizing the busy mind.

[52:28]

And the mind that is very far away from play. Because it thinks it knows what's going on. To be able to recognize that mind for what it is. And then when you do that, automatically there's some freedom and sense of play. So if a few words or a line of a poem reminds us of that, then we find it really wonderful. If a few words or a line of a poem reminds us of it, then we find it very wonderful.

[53:48]

So this is all to say that you should buy more poetry books. And then read. Yes, and read them and keep your mind flexible all the time for the poetry that's everywhere. And every time you speak, to speak with a sense of play. In a sense of the wonder and impossibility of using words. and a feeling of wonder to use the words.

[54:53]

I am amazed and appreciate what you have done here. So I think maybe I will continue writing poems there. Actually, in the United States, it's quite a problem to get your poems published. So I suffer a lot over this myself. Because even though my poetry is somewhat known, it's still difficult. Every time I publish a book it's a struggle. Because the publisher is sure to lose money.

[56:08]

So I have to wait a long time before the time that the book is finished and the time it gets published. Usually there's some years wait. So the state of affairs of all the arts is a very difficult thing in late capitalist society. It's a very difficult thing in late capitalist times, in all the arcs, not only in poetry. So, maybe it will improve someday after I'm dead. I hope so. One of our sons is an artist, for his sake, I hope so. But art is, you know, poetry and the other arts are so important and so necessary.

[57:31]

But the busy world is so overwhelming, it's taken over everything. So I think, I hope that this somehow changes. It has to change. In the meantime, we can cherish those rare poems that we happen to get our hands on. In the meantime, we can share these rare poems with each other that we can write. I recommend for everyone to keep a journal. I recommend for everyone to keep a journal. And every day in your journal sit quietly and think of one word.

[58:42]

Just one word. And write it carefully in your journal. On one page that has only this word on it. And look at that word and breathe with it for a few minutes. I think this would be a very good, fruitful practice. So try it sometime. Well, we sit for a few minutes. I really appreciated our day together.

[60:55]

Thank you very much. Philip dumped his dead tea leaves down the toilet. He stood naked under a hail-like waterfall. Rujing found spring in the plum blossoms.

[62:23]

And Genro found that true friendship transcends intimacy and alienation. Genro found this true friendship, trustworthiness and alienation. Thank you for translating.

[63:30]

Good morning. Good morning. Is there anything on your mind or that you're feeling that you'd like to reveal? Other than a cacophony of... Sounds like me. No? Everything is clear.

[64:36]

OK, Norman, do you want to start something? OK. while time goes by so quickly and I feel I'm just getting warmed up to the topic and I feel I have many many things that I would like to share with you But at the same time I feel as if whatever I would say would necessarily give the wrong impression. It would be definitely misleading. So this is kind of an impossible situation.

[66:01]

However, it's normal. So despite this and realizing that it's hopeless, I'll just start somewhere. This morning we were having a good conversation after breakfast. And I was saying that in everyday Zen there is a kind of experiment to see whether it's possible to live a fully committed religious life

[67:10]

In the middle of an everyday, crazy, distracted world. And this is actually how my life is now. This is actually my life now. I no longer have the support of the Zen Center community. And I have to get in my car and drive on the freeway in traffic back and forth. And in general, my life is the same as everyone's life now. But I find that for me it does seem possible that even with all that, that I can continue to live a fully committed religious life.

[68:30]

People often say to me, it must seem very different to you now after so many years, maybe almost 30 years living in the Zen Center. You must feel very different now to be living the way you're living. And when they say that to me, I say, yes, you're right, it must feel very different. I mean, it makes sense that it would feel different. But the truth is, it doesn't feel different at all. Actually, my life now is more peaceful and more feels like practice life than it did before.

[69:44]

Before, I used to have to get up very early and have tea with people for some reason. Then I had to go and offer incense in various places and bow several times. Then I used to have to go inside the zendo and march around for a while. And then I would leave the zendo and go and do doksan. So this is what I did every single day. Now I actually do zazen.

[70:59]

It's much better, you know. I just wake up and put water on my face and rinse out my mouth and light one stick of incense And before I even know it, I'm sitting zazen. And it's very peaceful. Nobody's ringing bells. Nobody's whispering in the zendo about very important things. I'm just sitting quietly. And then after a while I get up and make coffee in our very expensive coffee maker.

[72:03]

And then I wake up my wife and serve her coffee. And then after that Various other things happen. This is actually much more like monastic life than it was before. Because I don't have to go to any meetings and so forth. And, you know, I have to answer phone calls and this and that, but it's pretty peaceful. So I say to other people, if I can do this, you can do it also. Because I'm a normal, average person. And there's no question that anything that I can do, anybody can do, who wants to.

[73:06]

So anybody who also wakes up every morning and goes to work and does various things, if they want to, they can also lead a completely committed religious life. Practicing not only first thing in the morning, but all day long. Paying attention. for all acts of body, speech and mind, all the time having the spirit of investigating reality, and applying

[74:21]

And applying oneself to connecting with one's experience all the time. And if it's good, it's good. If it's bad, it's bad. If the mind feels profoundly wise or horribly stupid, then it's just what it is. It doesn't really matter. There are various kinds of states of mind that come and go during a day. The only thing is to be connected to the mind and be there with the mind. So, you know, practice at its ultimate level is available constantly. One of my many projects of Everyday Zen is working with people in business.

[76:02]

I didn't have the idea of doing this. It was a kind of accident how it happened. But I won't stop and tell you the story of how it happened, because then if I stop every time and tell a story, we'll be here for weeks, and so I won't tell you to tell that. I won't stop and tell you the story, because if I stop and tell a story, we'll be here for weeks. These retreats that we have are about how to practice a fully committed religious life when you go to work, no matter where it is you work. And people come to the retreats from all sorts of businesses, some from very large companies and some just have their own small business.

[77:28]

And sometimes there are medical people or people who work in non-profit business or government. So we sit together and we discuss and we study how to bring the mind of practice to real situations that people encounter in their everyday work. And I always think of one man who comes to our retreats almost every time he comes. And I remember very well the first time he came he said that his life was very painful.

[78:47]

Schmerz. Beautiful word. Pain, pain. Schmerz. Because, he said, He was doing spiritual practice. And it meant a lot to him. But when he went to work, he could not be the same person who was doing spiritual practice. And what was painful to him was the difference between the person that he truly felt he was in his spiritual practice and the person he felt that he had to be in order to go to work.

[80:10]

But now he doesn't say this anymore. Now he says he's only one person, the same person doing spiritual practice and the same person who goes to work. In the beginning he said, I would never tell anyone at work that I do spiritual practice. If I tell him that, he'll think I'm flaky. Yeah. I use the word flaky on purpose because I was very excited to hear it in German.

[81:26]

Big flakes are coming. Like a dog. Maybe there is a better translation. What did he translate flaky? Like crazy and not quite together. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, now he tells people now. And he often shares his practice with people. And this man is a financial advisor, an investment counselor.

[82:34]

Working for one of the largest American firms that does this kind of work. And he really feels now that all the people that are his co-workers and also his clients, he feels that these are people that he's practicing with. And it's not easy, of course. And he has many challenges. But he feels that all the challenges are practice challenges. And now he feels he's very glad that he has this job.

[83:34]

He really feels that it's an opportunity for him. So I know that it's not just me who thinks it's possible. I know that it really is possible for many people. This is not to say that it's easy. Or that we can somehow do it all by ourselves. I think we need first of all some personal discipline, regular practice at home. And I think we need a community of people who also are trying to do the same thing so that we feel that this is not just our crazy idea but other people also are sharing this vision.

[84:44]

And I think we also need spiritual teachers And I think we also need spiritual teachers. Not because they know something that we don't know. But for the relationship. Which gives us confidence. And I think we also need teachings. We need to keep the mind, we spoke yesterday of the mind that can read a poem. We need to keep that mind, the door of that mind always ajar. so that it can be opened easily which means maybe we have to study teachings almost every day maybe by studying just a little bit after we sit

[86:13]

Or by listening in the car on the way to work to tape. And also we need sometimes to go to retreats and seminars. And sometimes we also have to go to retreats or seminars and sashins. So this is a lot to do. But if one does it actually, then all day long, every day, life can be practiced. And one does this not to enhance one's life.

[87:27]

Because life is not something that can be enhanced or not. One does it simply because one finds that it is necessary. And also, too, there is happiness that comes from it. Happiness in knowing that one is completely taking on the problem of one's life. Das Glück zu wissen, dass man das Problem des eigenen Lebens vollständig zu seiner Sache macht. And has more or less left off the habit of avoiding the problem of one's life. Und die Gewohnheit, das Problem des eigenen Lebens zu vermeiden, aufgegeben zu haben.

[88:34]

My friend who works in the financial business has become a wonderful friend and resource for his clients and his co-workers. Some of them have also begun to practice Some of them have also started to practice. Others don't practice, but knowing him they realize that there is such a thing as spiritual practice and that it seems like a good thing. Others don't practice, but because they know him they know that there is such a thing as spiritual practice and that it is a good thing. And one of his main practices and one of the main practices of all the people who come to the business retreats is the practice of kindness.

[89:42]

And the people who come to him feel his kindness. And now he realizes that everyone is suffering. And when he offers them kindness instead of aggression, they feel better. So really his practice now influences a lot of people. And it makes them realize that it's actually possible for ordinary people to be kind.

[90:50]

That it's not true what everybody says, that one has to be aggressive mean to survive in the hard world. You know, we so much want to believe that somehow the way of practice is elsewhere. If only we had a better situation, better conditions, then we could practice. Maybe later on when our children are older. Or when we have accumulated more savings.

[91:51]

when our education is more advanced, when we settle the endless problem of our love life, when we are more enlightened, Then we will begin to practice. In earnest, then we'll really start. Practice is always shining on the horizon. We're going that direction, but we're not there. And the gap between where we are now and that shining horizon is the gap of our painfulness. That's the pain we're

[93:04]

That gap is full of pain. Schmerz. Schmerz. This gap, we made it up. It doesn't exist. Think about it. Buddha cannot be a person who lived a long time ago and died. The Zen master can't be Baker Roshi. It has to be you. You must be it. If not, how can Beka Roshi be Beka Roshi?

[94:28]

This gap is a fantasy. Practice is always available right now wherever you are.

[94:32]

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