We are both extremely nervous. You don't know what to say. Our script has not come yet. I think what we are supposed to say, everything is same. Everything is fine. So we can stop. So maybe you should say something to us so we can find out something to say. Hello. This is the state of uncorrected, this is the condition of uncorrected state of mind.

[01:13]

Unfabricated mind, you say, right? Translation is not loud enough. So, better? So we also need to realize untranslated state of mind. So maybe we can all kind of reside for a moment in Rigpa. Unrigged Rigpa. Rig means to construct. Dzogchen are among comparing Chinese Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism are the most similar of the two countries, Buddhism.

[02:53]

So Sogyal, as a Tibetan, has grown up in this tradition. And myself, as a Westerner, I'm always trying to find my existence within this tradition of Zen. So I think Sogyal and I were both serious that we would appreciate having some question from you. Because we might find some way, I might learn something too from Sogyal, he living in a tradition of Dzogchen and my coming to my existence in the Zen tradition, which have a lot of similarities and some differences. So if you do have some question, please put up your hand.

[04:18]

I excuse myself for showing myself a little bit stupid and weak. That's the best kind of questions. I make the experience that when I come home from work, I find myself very often depressed and bored by the uninterested people living around myself. And I very often depend on decisions by people whom I guess are not very interested in what they are doing. And in this kind of depression I'm living there, coming home from work, I very often find myself unable to decide to do something for me. And I would be glad if you could say something about that. Do you want to say that in German? . Okay.

[05:37]

All right. Well, that's not uncommon. Probably you're defining yourself too much from outside. And when you look at a baby, do you find yourself uninterested in the baby? What do you find yourself interested in? So sometimes if you look at a baby, you feel quite comfortable with it, quite at ease and some joy maybe from the baby. And what happens when, as the baby gets older, suddenly we get bored with adults?

[07:12]

And that's not just the fault of the baby or the adult, it's the fault of how we see. So you can actually kind of study your reaction to something that you do find joy in. And see why you can't bring joy to bring that same joy to everything. And so what I've said so far is just common sense. And what makes this common sense Buddhism? Well, Buddhism is a way to study yourself and your situation. And I think in Zen and I think in Dzogchen too when we're taking refuge in the Buddha and the Dharma and the Sangha you're also taking refuge in this immediate situation as being everything you need.

[08:34]

And if you can't really take refuge in this immediate situation as being the whole of everything, you're always looking outside yourself or somewhere else. And if you do take refuge in this immediate situation as the fullness of every possibility, including enlightenment and Buddhism and Buddha, it requires a significant change within yourself in how you move into that space. Because when you come home from work, actually Buddha and enlightenment are waiting for you. But how to recognize that is what makes it Buddhism. So now Sogyal Rinpoche will tell you how to do that.

[09:57]

He thought making me go first was, you know... Actually, you know, it's very difficult to answer questions. Because we have to be in that situation. In that immediate experience. I don't know exactly what your immediate experience is for me to speak of that. For example, generally what I do when people, for example, ask questions sometimes I have nothing to say.

[11:01]

I can give an answer but that's not really an answer. So I keep them And then there comes, through the teachings, comes a moment when things become clear, then question arises, the answer kind of effectively there. So I'm waiting for that moment. While I'm saying all this. But also, I think just one word. I think in that respect is that I think what's important is to find something that inspires you. Sometimes I tell my students, maybe they listen to a teaching, of a tape perhaps, inspires them, reading something that inspires them.

[12:15]

So that, because you see, it's to change that state of mind. Transform. Do you know what I'm saying? Do you know what I'm saying? It's to change that you need inspiration. So sometimes it's listening to music. Sometimes it's reading something inspiring. Not just sit in that boredom but try to change that situation. That's one way. Another way is also is you kind of accept that this is really boring. You just accept, this is really boring, and you say to yourself, what the hell, this is really boring, and you just accept it's very boring. If you really accept it's very boring, instead of saying it's very boring, when you really accept, sometimes something can change.

[13:18]

But if that doesn't change, then there's another thing to do. Which is, you breathe in that boredom. All these things you breathe in. and you give out the opposite of what you wish. This practice is called tonglen, giving and receiving. It is that giving and receiving should be practiced alternately. This alternation should be placed on the medium of breath. So initially it could be an environmental practice. When you find that environment is not very inspiring, boring. When your mind is boring. When you're boring. There's no hope. Just give up. But rather, you can breathe in and then give out what you would wish.

[14:40]

Do you understand? And it works a bit like air conditioning. It takes the hot air and turns it into cool air. Doesn't mean that you become more boring. Or maybe you become so boring that it will explode. then that may become ultimate fun. Then also you might meet some other people who are more boring. Then you find yourself not so bad. Then you find yourself not so bad. And you read a very, very boring book.

[15:48]

You say, this is really boring. Sometimes also having a good sleep is very good. Read a boring book and sleep. When you wake up, you feel slightly better. These are the different methods from the tradition. So now you seem to be little. See? Little. That's the difference. At least the idea is kind of, you know. That's a start. To take this home. Yes. Witten. Whose visions? Quite bored with it.

[17:28]

What did you say? Quite bored with it. Does anybody have a question that's not boring?

[18:36]

Yeah. I love it so much, I don't know if it's sometimes also sad. Oh yes. It's a way of doing something together, that's all. Questions and answers. Just ask the person what we could do together. Now that we're here, you mean. We have an hour and a half.

[19:37]

Yes. .

[21:20]

Any straight? That's a good one. Say something. So, as suggested, you just try everything.

[22:46]

And don't take it all so seriously. But I think a kind of certainty is helpful. In other words, A certainty that the way you want life to be is possible. Underneath this boredom, there's a kind of patience that's needed too. A patience like as if you put a stone in your hand and you just waited for the stone to speak to you. If you're not too excited and you actually have this patience, and a certain ease of mind and humor about it, what you need will start to speak to you. It's like Sogyal said, he sometimes doesn't know what to answer and he waits till something happens. If you wait, if you discover how to wait, everything begins to speak to you.

[24:03]

And it's true, I think, of what you said, though I only got part of the interpretation. If you can really hold on to or capture in your what I call your treasure box, your Schatzkiste. If you can capture that feeling you have in the morning in your body and trust it with a certain certainty in it, Then the world may start to speak to you about how its structures can, you can begin to feel you're participating. But you need to establish your mind in mindfulness. It's really quite simple but also quite hard to do.

[25:18]

Okay. Thank you. Depends on the dojo. Depends from dojo up. Maybe you could stand up when you speak and speak in German.

[26:38]

It's your turn. It's your turn. What did you say? I think it would be good if you can stand up so everybody can hear you. Okay, good idea. Okay. The thing you see, first of all, you see, I think, we sometimes fail to see.

[28:11]

Actually, there are a lot of things that we can trust. We can trust the sky. We can trust the earth. We can trust the sunshine. Consent. that the nature is also a very good inspiration for that. That's why sometimes when you feel the lack of the trust, it's good to go in the nature, in the environment, and just to be there. Because something wonderful about the nature is that it's very natural. And in the naturalness of the nature, if you just kind of, like for example, there's one practice in the Tibetan Buddhism, in the Dzogchen tradition. Like for example, when you feel kind of closed, when you feel not so open, then you find a very clear sky. And what you do is, you unite your mind with the sky.

[29:13]

And then what happens is that slowly the outer sky can inspire an inner spaciousness. From out of that union there comes what is called the secret sky or the wisdom sky. From that comes confidence. That's one example. Yeah, we have the same practice in Zen. And again, trust doesn't come... I'm responding to this question really not just for you, but for the air. Trust doesn't just arise from your trusting in something that's permanent out there. Because there ain't anything permanent out there.

[30:22]

So I think a good practice is actually when you walk, as you step forward, you feel like you're stepping forward and there's maybe a vast space there, a cave or a chasm. And you step forward and the aliveness of your foot, you're not sure anything's going to be there to meet your foot. And then the earth comes up and meets your foot. So there's unsureness and then trust and something happened. And if you can find your life at this simple level over and over again you can begin to build trust. It's like as Sogyal said with breathing, you breathe out and you breathe out like you're just going to disappear and die.

[31:34]

And you really don't care what happens, you're just abandoned, gone. Isn't that a German expression? So you just breathe out and then the world comes back. It's quite amazing, it comes back. So again, I think to stay with the same theme I brought up is you need to be able to trust this as it is just now. You have to recognize the world is simultaneously perfect and imperfect. And that's not a contradiction. So you take a phrase like, just now is enough.

[32:36]

If you keep just now is enough and not looking somewhere else, at some point it will be. Hmm. Augustus. She always reads in books that we as human beings live in a world of illusion and we don't see the reality. And she's absolutely unclear what might this reality be?

[33:39]

How can I find this reality? I'm older than you. So therefore first. No, no, you have to do the work. Tom, it's too bad we're so far apart from each other. We could start to... A little practice I gave people this weekend amidst all these visions. If you want to find yourself as complete and find the world as complete, find completeness in each thing you do. Again, if I pick this cup up, I move my hand to the cup with the feeling of completeness.

[34:44]

I do it specifically with a feeling of completeness. I don't do it in some other way. So I bring my hand to the cup. That's one step. That's a little dharma. And then I feel the plastic. That's the next dharma. So we have plastic dharmas. And then I pick it up and I hold it. And I have a drink and put it down. Now, as I pointed out in meditation the other day, the Japanese... And Chinese don't put handles on things. It's not because they don't know how to make handles. Chinese and Japanese and even Tibetans are quite smart.

[36:05]

But they want you to use two hands. Because you bring your energy to something when you use two hands. And I move it into the area, the field of my body and my chakras. If you practice in each small action completeness and wholeness, At a very practical level, just a little details of your life. At the end of a year, even ten minutes, you may feel surprisingly complete and whole. That's the vision.

[37:09]

And if after a year you're doing everything, you'll feel pretty incomplete after a year. So we keep trying to come to this vision and approach this and bringing our life into this wholeness all the time and it starts changing things. I don't have the right to ask such a question. Since I don't deal with the problem, I've noticed that my life is starting to change. The lives that used to be very clear to me, very predictable, because I don't know what I'm doing anymore, are suddenly no longer so there.

[38:10]

I experience exactly that when the control comes. I can't imagine that in an old age situation, Yes, I experience that I am doing something and then I realize that I am a bit upset, that I am dissatisfied, that I can't do things right. I really don't know if I should start an experiment now. I say every moment, but the moment tells me what to do next. And I experience a sense of confusion and say to myself, I have to confuse myself so that I am in connection and that each of my abilities should be complete. Well, I have a direct question to this. I'm practicing Buddhism since a year and since then a lot of things are changing in my life and I experience more confusion actually because things lose their place. And I'm losing this clarity of knowing what to do and what not to do, which profession and so forth in my everyday life. So my question is on one level, you say we should practice this clarity and completeness of all these little things.

[39:14]

And when I'm doing that, I find myself in the place all of a sudden that on a big scale, I feel confused and incomplete. So my question is how does completeness, does one moment lead to more completeness in the big scale? See, he wants me to talk and he's going to laugh. By the way, I think that the questions should be recognized by the two translators. When somebody asks a question, it should be to the two translators, and then the translator can translate, so we don't have to recognize the questioner. Does that make sense? I mean, if somebody puts their hand up, they would put their hand up for one of the two of you, rather than us trying to... That's actually one of the questions you brought up is one of the big problems of lay practice. Because in practice you've got to let things fall apart. That's why much of the teaching is carried in monastic type practices.

[40:32]

Because it's a safe place to fall apart. So you can be thankful for you could be thankful for these little details where you practice clarity or completeness, because if you can really be somewhat complete in some things, it allows other things to fall apart. I appreciate that you are a master of singing, and that you are not only white, black, white and green, but above all, I wonder why you have such an unethical social energy, because you don't say anything.

[41:35]

In Zen masters and lamas, I not only admire their humor and their wisdom, but also admire their extreme energy that they have, unexhaustible energy seemingly, and would like to know if you can tell me how one does it. Who's this for? This is for you. Actually, it's, actually, don't think about it, actually, frankly speaking. It's just, I think it's, sometimes I feel it's inspiration. If you have inspiration, and that keeps you going. She would like to add that she believes that. She believes it, but her own energy level always falls down during the day, even if she has enough inspiration, there's always an up and down of energy.

[42:57]

Well, my job today seems to be to give you little practices. So it's good to notice when you leak and when you don't leak. You could say right speech is speech in which you don't leak. And when you have a conversation with somebody and you feel depleted, you're leaking. And when you have a conversation where you don't or you're nourished by it, You're not leaking. And again, I would suggest you begin to notice when you leak and when you don't leak. Through practices like that, you begin to develop a sealed energy body, but not an armored body. So you just notice and you try to again emphasize letting the phenomenal world and letting your interactions nourish you and you know the difference.

[44:04]

Like I'm being nourished by Sogyal Rinpoche right now. So naturally I have a little bit of energy left after all the things in this conference. But I don't know about tomorrow. I have one more question, and that is, what is the goal of women? So, for example, women who have just had sex with men, or women who have had sex with men, do they deal with the issue, for example, of sexism or the experience of chauvinism? Does that bring things back? And in what way does that lead to sexism? Another question with the trust.

[45:25]

You have given the exercise of relating to the sky and building slowly up some trust, but how do you deal with experiences or facts like the ozone hole or something like happened in Chernobyl? And so what I get back is very destructive and not very trustworthy. No, no. Yes, yes. No, because you spoke about it. It's really good for you to continue. This is a trick. He's doing such a complete job, you know, really. No, because it's also very inspiring for me to hear him, you see. Really, honestly. No, that's right. I like to listen. Really. Oh, shucks. I said the world is imperfect and perfect.

[46:36]

There's a language of dissolution that's also a metalanguage of the physical objects of the world. a meta-language of the physical objects of this world that is talking and speaking destruction. As we saw in this recent war in Iraq. So our job as Buddhists is to find a language of of non-destruction, of wholeness, first of all for ourselves. As we all know, and particularly you know in Germany, ecology begins at home. And it's not just Chernobyl which is crumbling before us. each human being is a mixture of forces that are disintegrating it and integrating it and in yourself and you learn to speak those languages by just finding ways to notice how you actually exist

[47:59]

You just find out in which way you actually exist. What do you think is the most important thing for you to do? I got scared, and I keep getting scared, because I can't be alone anymore. And I also learn, for example, when I work with people, that there is still a lot of fear, and I keep getting scared, and I keep getting scared. It's a question concerning meditative practice.

[49:12]

She meditates sometimes and sometimes she has much anxiety coming with when some powers are released. She feels very much anxiety that the subconsciousness becomes consciousness and there comes much anxiety up and she has no idea how to deal with this anxiety. Especially also when she does breathing practice, combined with the breath that comes anxiety also, she would like to know how to deal with it. He'd say, you're a westerner, these are your problems. I think like Sogyal said earlier, when you're bored sometimes, it's helpful just to decide, oh, this is the way life is, I'll be this way all the time.

[50:15]

So if you're anxious you say, well, I'm willing to live as an anxious person all my life. And at the same time you have the feeling, oh, everything changes. I won't always be anxious. You can have both those ideas and something happens. There's many practical skills and things about anxiety, but that's enough. There's a saying in the Tibetan tradition is that if you can do something, there's no need to worry about it. If you can't do anything about it, there's no use worrying about it either.

[51:18]

And also in that respect, I think you see, continuing to practice. As Bhikkhu Rishi mentioned about that patience. Patience, in fact, I think the more accurate word would be endurance, I think. Would be endurance or patience. Waiting. You're willing to wait. That's one of the, it is said that the patience is the greatest armor. So if you wait and continue to practice, not give up, then slowly change occurs. Now in the Tibetan tradition, In the Tibetan tradition, there are some specific practices. For example, we use visualization, mantras. Because you see, there are many different forms of Buddhism, as you know.

[52:41]

Many different forms of practices. Sometimes, you see, at such times, when you feel very anxious, then you really invoke the Buddha. there are many Buddhas so whichever Buddha you feel is the source of your inspiration in the sky before you as the embodiment of all the Buddhas and unite your mind and heart with him or her and just quietly unite your mind and sometimes then you say a mantra In fact, it's interesting, the definition of mantra is that which protects the mind is called the mantra. In fact, Dalai Lama calls it that which protects the mind from its negativity. Or sometimes I think that which protects you from your own mind. especially when you are anxious when you are very nervous sometimes mantras are very good it's to transform the energy the state of your mind so these practices can be and then the visualization and invocation such practice could be also used as an aid

[54:05]

The next debate you are eligible to get in the book. Don't do much. It's okay. [...] He said, he would like to know Zen. He thinks there might be funny Zen masters also in the West.

[55:36]

This has to be seen. Yes, what do you think about what the Lord says in your tradition? Once he said that he wanted to teach, [...] Next year I'll be funny. Will you give me lessons?

[56:54]

I think you see, you don't know him, he's hilarious, he's a scream. He's just pretending to be serious. Just as I'm pretending to be funny. But you see, you notice that the humor is subtle. Anyway, so no more. Somebody has to be the straight man here. Irgendjemand muss hier ja ernsthaft sein. In the obvious way your bodies are, there's a big difference between Zen and Tibetan Buddhism.

[58:17]

Now this is becoming too personal. We are not the only examples. Sangha. Common sense. That's what both of us are doing. One thing is that I think as you raised up now I'm becoming serious.

[60:15]

is that, you see, there is a, I think what is lacking in the West is actually the community of practitioners that support a kind of a lay sangha that is really lacking. I find in my experience of having taught many years It's that really in Buddhism like the principle of the Buddha, Dharma and the Sangha is very important. That community practitioners is something that I'm trying to very much to encourage to form small groups of friends so that you can really study and really learn not just stuff but actually to understand and to share at the same time also to practice together because sometimes it's difficult to practice alone if you lack the discipline if you have to sit with some other people until they finish you have to sit so kind of practicing together helps

[61:43]

then also to share you see because I think you see what sometimes is lack in the kind of western society we lack little but you see that the families are split up we are kind of alone And we very much lack human affection. To kind of have a little bit of human affection and being kind to each other. And to really be there for someone else who is going through some difficult period. That kind of a personal process Actually, I've started doing these. We've started forming these training groups. I'm just kind of starting experimenting with them. Of course, there are sanghas. In each teacher there is a sangha. But starting small groups, kind of really meeting on regular basis, it actually has quite a marvelous effect.

[62:47]

That's what's necessary. And also one thing I want to say regarding the confusion. Sometimes also, as I said in the Dzogchen teachings, that when you actually start getting to really a deep space, confusion is also a part of the experience. Just as there are many doors and windows, or many doors you can come out so there are many experiences sometimes it's quite surprising that sometimes after you do meditation practice very deep practice if you had after somebody make you angry your anger is even more powerful or even you are more jealous and when that happens not to see it as

[63:49]

that the anger being powerful or the jealous being powerful but rather it's a sign of touching something deep to treat them same as when you experience bliss or clarity or absence of thought. So therefore you see not to judge the experiences Not to judge them. Just leave them as they are. Stay with them. That's also one way. Not just groups. Your friend is very important in practice. Just your friend and ultimately your teacher is your friend. I've almost never seen, or rarely have I seen someone's practice develop who hasn't also had a friend in practice.

[64:54]

And that friend is the basis of a small group. That's true. In this, what I try to encourage is, see, people who are already friends, they meet together and make a group. And then bring some other people in. That's true. Is it necessary for such a group to have a master? She thinks it's necessary to have a master. Look at him. Somewhere there has to be a teacher.

[66:05]

And if one on the planet, okay. If you can get closer, okay. See, I think there was in the 60s, 1960s and 70s, people went very much for the gurus. Now 80s and 90s, kind of anti-guru, I think both are kind of, how would you say, extreme. I think what you really see is what is the importance of a teacher. In fact, what the teacher is, is someone who shows to you the nature of your mind.

[67:09]

Like the mirror. What do you see in the mirror? Mirror is not important. But what mirror reflects, the reflection. So actually a good teacher, a true teacher, always gives you back, shows you your true nature. And that true nature which you discover through the help of the teacher is really the inner teacher. the outer teacher inspires the inner teacher and when you find confidence in the inner teacher then in a sense that you become inseparable with your also outer teacher it's very interesting like for example in many of the traditions like Zen In the Tibetan tradition. There are stories of such a close connection between the teacher and the student.

[68:13]

And also you see that the students become masters. Now how does a student become a master? I mean, you see, that's the thing that's important to remember. Because it's not always the master is the master and the student is the student. The student becomes the master. Is that when the teacher has shown to you the nature of your mind when you recognize it When you fully embody this essence, then you become a teacher. Then you teach others. That's lineage. Otherwise, you see, there is a danger. Because it's very well to say, no need of teacher. But then, somewhere along, even if you study computers, you need a teacher. If you need to drive, you need a teacher.

[69:15]

I think in our life we do need a teacher. And that the human teacher someone who actually shows you that's why in the Tibetan tradition we emphasize very much the oral transmission. I think same in the Zen. That not reading books but you get directly. Because then you see what you really try to receive is the mind of the master. den Weisheitsgeist des Lehrers. Ist es, Knick? But also I think what's important is understanding the connection and the relation. Having a teacher doesn't necessarily mean you give up your independence. In fact, a true teacher always encourages your nature and gives you self-esteem. Do you understand?

[70:25]

I mean, for example, myself. See? I was brought up from childhood by this great master. I owe everything to him. Really. Had it not been for him I wouldn't have understood some of the things that I understand now. It's very much through his kindness, through his compassion, that really touched something in me, giving me confidence in myself. And I'm so grateful for what he has given me. But he is completely free of that giving. he doesn't ask anything out of me only thing he's interested in giving me showing me as long as I've learned it he's happy is this clear?

[71:30]

I think it's important to me that's why you see what I do with my students I tell story of my master I tell them how I was brought up, how I felt. By sharing my experience, perhaps you can get a little bit of feeling of what it is. Because I think it's important to understand that well. Because otherwise it might be the wrong understanding of devotion. And it's kind of rather immature. And that's not very healthy. You must have a very mature devotion. Do you understand? My question is

[72:45]

I've heard in many questions that people are very much involved in circumstances and somehow can't pull them out of this. And on the other hand, there are people who are coming to their own potential more and more and feel how they are creating their own involvements and attachments they learn how to free themselves from it. So my question now is, is the next 10, 20, 30 years a time where more and more people are actually able to fully live their potential and to detach themselves from certain circumstances? That's my question. Or will there be other people always who suffer and cannot free themselves? There will always be people who suffer.

[74:22]

Or always is maybe too big a word, but probably. But it's possible. I mean, again, I see Buddhism as a language. And if individuals and peoples, cultures start speaking a language like Buddhism more, as I said earlier today this conference is an attempt to create a kind of public space and I don't think people are aware that public space is a western creation doesn't exist in Bali except in tourist hotels This does not exist in Bali, except in tourist hotels. In Japan, Japan had many private spaces for initiates, but no public space.

[75:26]

And some peculiarity in Europe and America and so forth has created this really powerful, but not always powerful, but not necessarily existent public space. A space where anyone can enter. And this conference is like that. Anyone can enter. And a Tibetan Buddhist or an American Zen Buddhist Or just a couple hours ago, Pir Vilayat Khan and I did this. This is actually quite unique in the world. And I think if we can continue to create a more subtle public space, a more subtle way in which the world can communicate with itself, I'd like to, I hope anyway, it's possible that languages of liberation can become more widely understood.

[76:57]

Buddhism says the world will always be greed, hate and delusion unless you practice. And traditionally Buddhism has had not much idea of governments and progress. It's always been governments, business, that's greed, hate and delusion. And I think one of the challenges of the West may be able to create a truly lay Buddhist Sangha. creates the possibility to or anticipates the possibility that other religions may be able to do the same. So practices, liberation practices, enlightenment practices can enter into every situation. When you see another person's pain and not their nationality, you're already in a different world than a century ago.

[78:12]

When you're as concerned with the other side's casualties as your own in a war, you're in a different world than just a little while ago. So I think it means we may be able to have a somewhat different world, but I'm willing to accept this one. Also what, I mean, His Holiness Dalai Lama has been saying for the last two, three years, very consistently he's been saying that he's very hopeful of the 90s. That we've been through a lot in the past century.

[79:23]

that now he feels that the 90s will be more enlightened and more happier. I've heard him say that now consistently for three years. And so I think we are at an important juncture Important juncture. And earlier one, you know, when you were saying about what about all these visions, I said boring, which was just a joke. It must not be taken. Please don't tell the organizers. Please don't record this. Edit this out. No, I think you see, I think it's a wonderful thing what's happening.

[80:38]

I mean, particularly here in Berlin, which is a historical place now. You see, since the falling of the Berlin Wall, the opening of the East European countries, And it's happening here in some ways the heart of Europe. I think it's very significant. And then there are also many teachers, very eminent teachers from all different traditions coming together. And you all from different parts. Only thing I was told that not so many East Germaners Interestingly, I've only heard that there aren't many East Germans here. so anyway but the thing is what I wanted to say it's wonderful but what I wanted to say is that is that if suppose if you just talk about the vision and the power of vision just here then I don't know how powerful it's going to be I think each one of us has to kind of carry that

[81:55]

What we've learned, we'll share with our friends. And also, as Pekaroshi was saying, it's about important to create the subtle public space Which is, if I were to say from my own perspective, I think what is necessary to create a kind of a space where there is a consistent, how would you say, consistent learning, consistent, do you understand what I'm saying? Not just coming for a weekend. Where we can go more deeply and share. I think that's what we need. And a spiritual and public space that's not just an hotel, but it's inside you too, the way you let people in you. That's true. So I think you see That kind of a more deeper work in future.

[83:11]

I know there are so many people of you really interested, you know, want to follow further to create opportunities. And also for all of you, when you find something that you really found inspiring, is to maybe search and not just give up this weekend, but continue to search and learn and evolve. Perhaps that's the power. We'll stop slowly. I have a lot of problems with the thought of taking a traditional view.

[84:19]

I think of stillness and I am always afraid of what I will do with my ecstasy. I don't know if the future will be the same as it is now. The earth will be destroyed. I would like to ask you. He's from East Germany and up to now he had not the possibility to meet many teachers because of the situation with the wall and everything. But now he has a little bit of a problem to get involved with traditional teachers because he always hears about stillness and he asks himself, what should I do with my ecstatic parts of my personality? And he thinks in the future there should be groups and sanghas where you're also allowed to dance and lift this ecstatic parts of your personality and would like to know what... You think about it.

[85:26]

I've been known as the Disco Roshi. Well, it's a mistaken idea to think that Buddhism, Zen or Dzogchen has to do with stillness and not bliss and ecstasy. Bliss is really where it's at. The experience of emptiness of the undivided world, you know it through bliss. But maybe we'd say that ecstasy, which means, at least in English, out of place, out of place. Buddhism is ecstasy in place as well as out of place. That's like the mudras. The movement.

[86:38]

There are many movement practices. From out of that stillness, the movement stillness becomes the same. There are many such expressive forms of meditation. There are. Not just always sitting. Having said that, we continue to sit. Feels good. OK. Shall we...

[87:18]

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