The other side of that isn't that, oh, then what I did was wrong. The sense of this in practice is I take what I did for satisfaction in what I did. But I couldn't have done it better. So it's not, that was bad and this is good. Also, it was bad and you take shame and you're ashamed of yourself. Then you take it, it sounds strange, a kind of pride that you felt shame.

[01:00]

You have a kind of pride that you realize you can do it then. That's just a kind of craft or approach. to do it that way. And I think one of the ways I would express what I hear from you with you is maybe we can think of the innermost request as a kind of soil And the soil doesn't know it's going to produce this beautiful flower.

[02:06]

Or this great tree. It does produce these trees and flowers. So it's the fruitfulness of an attitude rather than something you can grasp. Or maybe we can use, as Christians, We don't know where the North Star is. We can't grasp the North Star. But somehow our compass... tells us the direction.

[03:15]

So maybe our inner star is the North Star, but all we know is the compass. And of course, there's various levels of coming into feeling around the path. Und natürlich gibt es verschiedene Ebenen davon, dass wir fühlen, wir sind auf dem Weg. And certainly Zen says, you know, using a phrase like, or opening yourself to a phrase like, not knowing is nearest. Und natürlich, wenn Zen sagt, man soll sich auf so einen Spruch einlassen wie... That's a common thing in our lineage, common 20, I guess, in the Shreya Roku. It's said, I'm going on pilgrimage. On a quest.

[04:27]

The teacher says, where have you gone? And the answer, he answers, I don't know. And then he says, not knowing his nearest. And the important thing about this question, among the three bodies, can be, is filled with, the understanding of these three bodies and the experience of it in our practice. But the question is, which one does not fall into any category? And that question goes beyond the three bodies.

[05:43]

How can you know a world that doesn't fall into any category? And the duality we find One, and in one, we find duality. And in the duality, we find one, and in one, we find duality. And, you know, when I asked Rikiroshi in the Shosan ceremony years ago at Tassajara to practice with him, and I asked him, yeah, a young practitioner, And I asked him, as a young practitioner, but he understood how to do it. And certainly I was asking him questions. And I said, how do I find responsibility? And I said, how do you feel? And this was, this seems like an obvious, easy answer.

[07:00]

But under my feet was the soil of this intention. Now tomorrow I'll take a look at what Marie-Louise brought up. Can this be inscribed or not? Or is it innate? Or is it something you can't... Something other than those... Or is this something different than this alternative? So let's have a moment to silence again. Also haben wir eine... That's huge. So that's time, and I'm not there, that I could just go for something that I don't know.

[08:31]

I don't even know if it has any sort of, whatever will be a positive background. As for me, when you spoke at the end, I'm not there. I'm just shouting out musical words. Because... Because I have the feeling, no matter where it comes from, from a Christian background or something else, that I don't want to follow something that I don't know, what's inside me, from which I can't even check if it's acceptable, kosher or something else. So that it fits me, not unscrupulously, but it's like an inspiration for me. It seems to me we have some work to do tomorrow. Pleasure and satisfaction it is for me to be here with you.

[10:45]

And since the topic The seminar was in most progressed. As I've said, I thought, well, this is a phrase that Suzuki Roshi used so much. I should review some of the ways he used the phrase. And I could see that he used it in relationship to his own life and practice.

[12:10]

And of course, was, I would say, part of his development as a Zen master. And part of how he developed practice for us in the West. And of course, this goes beyond most of our own development at this point. But I think feeling the history of one's person's, extraordinary person's use of this We can learn something.

[13:14]

Yeah, in regard to our own use of this teaching and term. And of course, when I think about this, I say... I remember and know my own use of the term in my own practice. And over the years, others. the use of the term with people with whom I practice. And now we have our own experience here of this term. So a simple term like this. We are embedded in our personal history, in our practice, in our activity, develops a power and a power.

[14:39]

as a teacher. So I'd like to start off now with where we left off. So who is next from the couple groups that didn't respond? Yes. Uh, I want to mention that, uh, when I was, uh, when I was born, right, at the first evening, we were, we were there. And that means that there was only, uh, some of us in there.

[15:58]

And there was, uh, Lisa, the general, uh, that there is something that, uh, um that makes people yeah of course and a little bit you can't really walk to the other one uh because we don't know there's something it's like and uh all right until friday evening Do you want to speak? It's like, you know, the moon, it's like, you know, it's like, you know, it's like, you know, it's like,

[17:02]

Okay. There were two attitudes. um definitions of in what request one is uh that you uh do something with it yeah it doesn't to find out the universe request and then act upon it and uh and the other one is to uh

[18:56]

Maybe like I said this morning, to let it find out itself, you know, just to see the reflection of the universe, the question, whatever's appearing. in that way the second way was the the term resonance came into discussion so that you um not to find out something and usually to do something but to uh see the reflection to find some resonance in uh in yourself this is two opinions, although I am no longer so precise.

[19:59]

The one is that you find out what this inner concern or this desire is and then implement it in life or do something with it. And the other is that this that you simply feel a resonance in the things that you encounter, or the belt that you wear, that it triggers a resonance in you and that such an recognition takes place, that is, an indirect encounter with this innermost object. Very good, Mr. Lüsser. Yes, I agree. I remember, and I also mentioned that for me, the picture of the field where there are seeds, the very picture for me, because I have the feeling that anyone has this soil.

[21:06]

What you have to see is to make them grow, it's awesome. And then you don't know what kind of plant it is. But by walking and talking to people about this, problem. You have to see to it that you're really lost and fade away. You have to walk on your feet. Which also means to us it's really hard to do the activity of how you account for things in life. Yeah. Yeah. Don't be late. Eric is somewhere else.

[22:11]

Completely drifted away. Thank you not to be late. This is a picture of a field that is a very beautiful picture of a very beautiful field that is [...] a very beautiful field and you know for sure that the plants are growing very well. When you plant them, they start to bloom. I think it's important that the species and the spirit meet each other, that they grow together. And I think, as I said, an important thing was the trust.

[23:35]

How can you trust someone? And at the moment, where the trust is falling out, it is very difficult to recognize it. Because we said that it also needs trust to trust, but we refined our seeds and lots of parts. And it's very difficult to feel the trust But sometimes you encounter your innermost quest that you know is dead, and then you fear to take it, and then you go back.

[24:58]

And this is a very painful experience. And... And then we said, because some of these people are rude, they are very strict with themselves. So if they don't find their way in, if they don't take this challenge of giving up the quest to live through, and just feel you've failed, they're very angry at you still. They try to punish you, but they feel you have to punish them still. So we developed this. We also have now a kind of a, excuse me, Grace. Yeah, great. Great. Compassion for yourself. Great. We might.

[25:59]

It's a translation of the project, which is the term of how the heart and mind Heart of the light. [...] You have a certain kind of softness towards yourself that you don't describe. And take me where you are. I tell you still to go your way and stay as a child. We have an idea, rising mind and sinking mind. I use the term. I always think of the time I was running to go somewhere rather than dressed up, I remember. und ich erinnere mich, wenn ich diesen Ausdruck verwende, dann erinnere ich mich an eine Situation, wo ich ziemlich aufgemarscht hat, wohin laufen musste.

[27:14]

That's right, I used to rather be in East Georgia. I was in my dwindle. Dundle, dundle, dundle. Oh, okay. It was like that. And I was running and I slipped and fell right into a big muddy puddle. And I remember I fell Interesting experience. You know, it was like, well, I would just have to explain on the good stuff. And Buddhism has called rising mind. Oh. So if you did something wrong, as I said yesterday, you notice that, well, at least I noticed I did something wrong.

[28:34]

I'm proud of myself. So it's kind of, you know, things are... wrong and messy and not messy, right? But right speak is to make an effort to find the positive in what you're doing, but not to be schmaltzy. It's suddenly there was a fly outside, a big one, really big. And it's just there. And then I saw a duck came and caught it. During the class, they lived just within this tree.

[29:51]

And that was quite awesome. I'm sorry. You're studying in my school. And it was just great. Thinking. And so it means that you try to see the positive aspects first before you see the negative aspects. It doesn't mean you ignore the negative aspects. One of them.

[30:56]

One function was as if an inner voice would constantly say, get up, get up, get up, rise from your seat. And the other function would be an invitation to sit down. And for me, two different aspects developed which are included in this innermost request. And this, not in white, but this, which means an appellate, yeah challenging quality is uh would be uh connected what uh what christian christian said yes this compass needle yeah so that would be related to that

[32:38]

And that is something without form or is somehow inviting you to go into this formlessness. And there is also something different which I am experiencing now with getting older. that there are certain places within the body which are inviting you to settle down, to sit down. Yeah. And that's somehow related to with fall and with quality which can be experienced, which can be felt.

[33:57]

And these places, they arise in relation to the environment. Marie-Louise brought up a couple of things. Marie-Louise just before we start. Marie-Louise brought up a couple of things just before we start. And you want to bring them up again? The very last thing, right? So I said, for me, it's difficult to trust something that's inside me that I don't know, that I can't check on, and trust something led by faith. Why do you think so?

[35:23]

Do you have any idea? That's why I don't know. Either it's societal conditioning that you're straight out not a good person... But it's just that I don't know internet skills. I don't know why I'm afraid of it. Either it's a very strong conditioning, that you're already bad at it, or that I'm afraid of something I don't know, that I don't want to trust. I think the right way to get lost I don't know if one can be abstractly free here, just momentarily free.

[36:23]

What is trust and what is freedom? It's much better than what he said. He said it's not an abstract question if you have fear or not fear or either.

[37:27]

It's apparently position yourself in that spectrum of on one side fear, on the other side don't trust. So, Christine and I, we drove home last evening, and Christine said that she realized that maybe, that we are, but you didn't say what we are clear about. But I said it's not true because she said she ate it when the world champion said it.

[38:29]

Okay, very good. A question about women is important for me, because as Steven said yesterday, we have come to the point where we have to admit to reality, even though it is not possible in the legal society. What is important for me is what Roger said yesterday, that we come to a certain point where we acknowledge it for us, although it doesn't give much emphasis in our society as a whole. So one point of trust is that we give it reality, although it's not within our cultural and societal canon of knowledge. The other question is how we deal with it.

[39:53]

How do we deal with it? How does it work? And another aspect is how we learn to act with it or to be with it or to practice that, how we can find trust in that teaching with it. Yeah. Who's going first? No, no, he was first. Do you want to respond in relation to what she said? I would like to respond in relationship to what you said and what she said. Okay, shall we stay with Alice? Do you want to say something, Christian? I want to respond. All right. Who responds first? I will just make a short response. For me, it's also what was in our group. It's also responding what was in our group.

[40:54]

There was this kind of controversy. It might be too harsh at first, but there was a certain kind of disagreement. Do we always have to bring things into the realm of knowing in order to In order to know it, you know? Yes. So when you said this thing about when was the world created, how was it, does it exist, etc. Can I know it? I mean, can I know it without knowing it? Is it necessary to know it intellectually in order to satisfy my need to find a place in that? My answer would be It's fun to know things, you know. I mean, that's my profession, to know things. And it's really fun, you know. We're all going to start attending your class.

[41:57]

But... Yeah, but it's also... It's a kind of different quality to... To feel the things, to feel it out. Yeah, but it's also kind of, I mean, it's not a kind of, it's not not knowing. You're still there. You have a place here. Yeah, but to try... I have a colleague, she always tries to make a complete sociological theory. And she's trying to weave the unconscious somehow into a sociological theory. And my answer is, keep it, just keep it up. I mean, that's not how a business as sociologist. Don't bother with it. That's a different kind of territory. Okay. Also, ganz kurz, ich glaube, es ist nicht notwendig, alles ins intellektuelle Verstehen zu bringen.

[43:04]

Es ist von Beruf. Can I make a short comment here? We have to start. Also, ich könnte einfach nur sagen, wir haben dieses Thema. And it's turned out to be something of a can of worms. Und das scheint irgendwie so, als wenn man hier eine Dose voller Würmer, also ein endloses und ineinander verworrenes Ding aufmachen würde, mit dem man schwerflettern würde.

[44:15]

Yeah, we may not be able to solve all the problems, but at least we're swimming in some sort of similar water. And one of the reasons it's complex is there's a There's a psychological aspect to this phrase. And then there's a practice element and a very deep practice element. And then there's Suzuki Roshi's particular use of the term. Putting that together in two and a half days is probably not possible. But at least I feel we have a feeling of practicing with this together.

[45:46]

So, question? I would like to speak in English now. Maybe you can share. That you have to make short sentences. The way I discovered what I held, although it was recorded. It's more that I learned to have the courage to kind of follow my own path.

[46:47]

And then I came across the teaching of the innermost request. this still opens up the feeling of what it means to follow my own path. One complexion is also more differentiated, right? Because I can connect your Buddhist teachings with it in a more sophisticated way. So in what Marie-Louise said, what sticks out there for me is the premise of not knowing.

[47:57]

to not knowing what it is. That knowing what it is, or that for me, it comes out of the actual experience, that following it brings a deeper kind of satisfaction in my life. The aspect of knowledge is for me that if I follow it, whatever it is, that it is more satisfying in my life, that it brings a deeper satisfaction in my life. And I see that it took a certain kind of courage, you know, to follow this path, you know, most of the course. But the more I thought, and the more it... But the more I follow this from the outside, it seems more like a more natural way of living, of living in the world.

[49:32]

And that it actually is a kind of knowing, even though it's not, it can't be pinned down, that the knowing shows itself in the... Yeah, I mean, in the feeling of being, in the satisfaction. I wanted to add something to what Christine said. I thought I had to say a similar thought as Christine had, and I asked myself whether this question of the innermost guest isn't a little bit far out.

[51:16]

In the sense of... Yeah. Yeah. And then I found this little workshop we had at the seminar was so satisfactory for me because it was so full of answers. The first thing was I asked Christian how he came across Zen. And Christian said somehow it came across and it just fitted, it just made sense. And it is similar to a priest getting his calling. And I think this is still quite an interesting thing, because not many people do have that.

[52:32]

And I myself, I don't have it. But then work concrete and very beautiful things came. Eine weitere Sache war, und das betrifft jetzt schon vielleicht mehr Leute, und das kann ich teilen. There are a lot of things which may be threatened to more people than just this AETs group. And maybe I could share this also. Es ist ein innermostes Request, es ist ein leeres Request. Something you do not really know until it happens. But this also might also be a very small proportion of society.

[53:34]

Are you a communist? No, no, no. I am not a Catholic. Of course I am not a communist. I am a Catholic. I am not a communist. And then there is something that I believe that many people share. And that's why I believe that there is something where I say something. And then something was discussed, which I think many people share, and what happens to many people, and that's something what Arsemilian said. So then this is a more commonly shared category, this innermost request. I asked Erich, what is your inner most request? And I said, I, in the sense of Erich said, Erich said, Actually, the most important thing for me is to raise my children and to... Yeah, not to give them something, but to know that they can stand on their own feet and...

[55:33]

This, I think, is true. I think that might be true for almost all people who have children. And when Eric said that, it became clear to me that it can be so simple. And that can be one example. And that was somehow like, that highlighted for me how simple it can be. When Roland in the discussion continuously mentioned the wish from your heart, a wish that is connected with your heart,

[56:43]

And I think everybody knows what this wish from the heart could be and what it is and what is made by it. Because you can grasp it with your feelings, with feelings. And the whole range of answers, what can be an enormous request? Thank you. Thank you. Now, is it possible to add one more question? Well, of course. Hold on. Hold on, Dr. Walter. Okay. I want to make sure because I have some... thinking since yesterday in our group arrived kind of idea that it's an existential thing.

[57:48]

And you said those. And he said yesterday, the innermost request comes before Buddhism. So it's a very deep and precocious thing. And if I follow this, then this would mean that I would say that existence has to do something with intention. Because request equals intention in this sense. On the other hand, we all know that our intentions in life lead us to attachment to the thing.

[59:07]

And attachments create pain. And so this is something which makes me quite unsure about this inner most. And trying to solve that, I had the following idea. You said yesterday that it's... the mind can perceive the perceiving mind, this double perception. And so I got the idea that it could be the search for the innermost request free us from it. I mean, perceiving our innermost request in a disturbed way, so to speak, I have the intention to look at my innermost request intention and see it working, which is freeing me up from my innermost request.

[60:35]

So the whole thing starts in the idea that in uttering the sentence, if you meet Buddha, kill him, I would say, if you meet your kingdom's most request, can you... So, I think that this is the... No, I love it. I'm glad you did all this work considerably. Can you say something? No, just say something. I can leave it together. Okay. The idea that I had was, that in exchange for this double perception, one could also perceive the inner most request twice, in order to introduce this observation of the inner most request. And in exchange for this sentence, if you see the Buddha, kill him, I would say, if you see the inner most request, then kill him.

[61:37]

Is it long or short? Maybe we can start with what you want to say, or what I'd like you to say, whatever you say, after the break. I'm just waiting to... I'm sorry, yes. Okay. We'll start with what you want to say, whether it's long or short, after we took a break. Because there's quite a few things also I would like to speak to after the break. I don't think we can do much now. But to sort through what we mean by words, what we mean also by fear, trusting, So forth.

[62:46]

Really, if you don't do that work in practice, you don't get very far. Yeah. We're scheduled to start at four. I believe it's in the program. And I think in the program, I would like to see that we open at 4 o'clock in the afternoon. So if we do what we did yesterday, which is have lunch at 12.45. If we do what we did yesterday, which is have lunch at 12.45. And come back together. We have this problem every Sunday, the seminar, and we don't try hard to solve it. We have this problem every Sunday at every seminar, and we don't know how to solve it.

[63:54]

One solution is to have a lunch. One solution is to have a lunch. One solution is to stop now. One solution is to just stop now. And lunch is scheduled for what time again? Oh, what do you call it? You can say what? Oh, really? What do you want to change? We've stopped. So we could start at 12.30 maybe. What is she planning? She's planning at 12.45. So we start again at 2.00. All right. Okay. So now it's over. Nobody understands that except the speakers. Okay. And we have another now break.

[65:02]

And we have a half hour break. And the break ends now. I just wanted to add something to what Eva said about our group. And I want to be rather brief, because I'm very hungry. Not direct towards lunch, but what Roshi is going to say. But within our group, a question emerged.

[66:10]

Is there an answer? No. It's up here, right? This innermost request, something innate, something which came into existence together with the moment when we were born, innate, which is maybe more honest or more true than our faith, But maybe it's also like Eric said, or is supposed to have said, that you can see it only retrospectively if you look at your life. And maybe from that also this shyness derives to look at your innermost requests.

[67:16]

Once I read a sentence like when you see very clearly or when the goal of your life is clearly before your eyes, presumably you took the wrong route or you made a mistake in following your way. If the goal of your life is clearly visible, you probably made a mistake. Maybe you took the wrong way. I've never heard that. I have to think about it. I've never heard that, but I have to think about it. Sorry. Maybe that's also a sign for this shyness to look at this animal first, or this reluctance. Thank you.

[68:26]

Well, that's also partly the question, I think, that... Marie-Louise had with her inscribed innermost request from the baron, or is it innate? And that is, I think, also somehow connected with what Marie-Louise said, with this, by these inscriptions, to inscribe an innermost request in itself. And, or the question, on the other hand, is this something that has been offered? My own impression with people is that people who have accomplished, scientists and musicians, etc., they often decided very early to do what they do. Before societal progress, And I think I've just mentioned, I can mention people's names usually, but a close friend of our family, my family, one of the family is, and also present, is Linda Ronstadt, who's a popular singer in America.

[69:58]

And she's a very intelligent, nice person. And she made a decision. She says, I want to be a singer all my life.

[70:07]

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