Exciting. No. Oh. No, I just want to hear. The moment when I came to meditation was a experience where I was looking at flowers And in one moment, I had the feeling that I was the flower. There was no difference between the flower and me. You described it later, but I never really had to care. That was very exciting for me, because I never thought things like that could happen. And yeah, for instance, once I I could see myself from somewhere up there. I could see myself sitting down there.

[01:04]

And I could make choices from where I wanted to see myself. And there, at the same time, I was very excited in the way like... We are reading a book about a little green man living on Mars. in a way, oh, that really exists, and I want to know about it, and how far can I go and still see my body sitting down there. And it happens simultaneously. I thought, well, you can also say, oh, how interesting. I'm sitting down there, being up there. And it was a kind of choice. And I didn't want to make that choice. to see more exciting things. Did you see more exciting things? No, no. But things like that happened.

[02:11]

Maybe we could meditate together and we could hold hands. That commences that meditina, doesn't it? Maybe I have some of these experiences, too. What experiences? Me too. Yeah. Yeah, it's true. Practice can be wonderfully exciting. But I do think in my own experiences the more you can come to whatever happens in practice with a big empty mind or a big spacious mind which may even... include in it a great deal of excitement.

[03:27]

But you don't grab at the excitement. I think that state of mind you're much more likely to be friends with flowers over and over again. It's also not just the experiences, but what state of mind do these experiences arise in? And if we get too caught in the experiences, we don't really recognize the state of mind from which they arise. That's my experience. That's what this Kohan and Sukhashir are trying to present. But there's no hard and fast rules. If you want to... If for you practice is deepened by as you described it, then you should practice as you wish.

[04:56]

But maybe the first time you see a flower that way, it's quite exciting. But after the hundredths or the thousandths, it's just some deep satisfaction that develops your character in a certain way. Again, it's like you move into another topography. But at that moment, it's not very different from any other way of being present in the situation. But if you can stay mostly in this, without forcing, but stay mostly in this kind of... way of being present in the details of your life.

[06:08]

And only maybe only a week you're in a rather different place in your life. It may look the same but feels very different to you. And Tsukiroshi emphasizes at the end of this piece, this is not a gradual way of practicing. Or rather, it's a gradual way of practicing, but it's not about gradual attainment. What he means is that there's no way the surface of a wave can gradually become water. Because the surface of the wave is already water.

[07:20]

So we develop gradually when the surface of the wave knows it's water. Whether it knows it by faith, or experience, or the practice of getting wet over and over again, you end up in a different place, but the attitude is always just now. And however you want to express it. This very mind is Buddha. Not Buddha. Not Buddha. That works too. Yeah. Yeah. I think the clock says it's time for a break.

[08:49]

And we don't want to go too long, so shall we take a little break now? And then we'll try to end with some little excitement. So let's aim for 20 minutes or so again. The hardest thing for me to travel around between seminars with is a flip chart. The hardest thing for me to travel with is the flip chart. It takes up the whole back seat and blocks the window, blocks the mirror. And somehow I couldn't carry it on the ICE. Even though there's more room than in most trains, So Neil went out and the Berlin group or the seminar or something bought this for Berlin.

[10:03]

So now we have one in Berlin. And we have lots of... So I feel I could start writing lots of things. But I sort of like it being blank, too. So we'll leave it blank for a while. Now it's really such a fine, pleasant, mild day. It's really such a pleasant, cool, fine day. But I think we should really not spend too much more time in this cool, calm, serene room. Please, I'll start translating you.

[11:14]

You had a question. Oh, we remember it. You can't get out. Witnesses. I have so many questions. Yes, one of them is, for example, what you said earlier, maybe I didn't quite understand it, when there are three people who meditate together, and they have a question, then you have the feeling that there is already a Buddha field, and then you can tell them one thing and tell them another thing, You said before that when there are three people sitting together, a Buddha field appears. A few people, yeah. Three?

[12:35]

Yeah, okay, three. What if it appears and if you tell each of the three something, everybody has something from this. But whereas I'm, for example, like I'm a lonesome fighter and I sit alone, you can say anything and I don't have anything in that really. Okay. Okay. But that's not the question you asked before. Oh dear. I'll tell you my version of what she said. You have to accept my version. But it actually may be someone else's version. She said there's a certain excitement she feels in asking a question.

[13:41]

And then a certain fear. And then doubt whether maybe this question's already been answered and so forth. And here you have the play when something like this happens. Well, let me say that... Well, okay. Here you have the play of... Here you have the play of... Immediate consciousness. Kind of rising into a question. and borrowed consciousness, kind of winding around it, saying, hey, this isn't right, or it's, you know, something. To really ask a question, you have to kind of untwine, unravel the two kinds of consciousnesses.

[14:45]

And so push a little bit to the side the fear and the comparisons that's already been asked or whatever. Or it's stupid. And trust the excitement of the question. Because there's, and I'm using the word excitement, advisably. When you have a real question, it's often accompanied by a kind of fear. Because there's a field created in a group, And when you break into the field in a genuine way, there's a certain transitional fear.

[15:59]

So usually a good question arises with a certain fear. But in practice you try to not so much look at the fear, but trust the energy of the question. And you almost have to kind of let it come into being or let yourself give birth to it. You have to allow the... question to... you have to sort of get out of the way of the question.

[17:01]

It can be almost like in high school or gymnasium when you first want to talk to somebody that you thought was attractive for a month. And somehow there's a certain excitement, but you somehow can't, so you finally just have to stand aside and let the question come out. Could I borrow a cigarette? Will you return it? So when she mentioned this to me, I said, trust the excitement or the energy of your question and ask it after the break.

[18:13]

And I said, we've just rehearsed it. We'll rehearse it. But then she asked something else She didn't ask? She told something in the break. The question she swallowed was this. How do you mean this with the lonesome fighter on whom you have nothing to tell? Yeah, okay. Well, you're not so lonesome.

[19:14]

You're here. It's here. And I'm here. Me too. And I'm very glad to see you each time I see you. So something's happening. Do you have a cigarette? Yeah, and going back to your question, When you have the desire, say, to see someone in the sunset. And I make these questions, sometimes I make them a little bit into jokes.

[20:17]

But it doesn't mean I don't take them seriously. Yeah. I think I answered, I responded to your question, which was a basic, basic, as what you said, it was very basic for what we're doing. But let me look at it a little bit. I responded one way, but let me look at it a little different way. Which is, when you have a, let's just keep it simple, a desire to see someone. That desire to see someone to be with someone, when you're with them, may not be satisfied.

[21:32]

So the desire to be with them is independent in a certain way from being with them. And again, you may be with a person and still wish you could be with them. So different is different. So when you desire to be with somebody and you're not with them, Just as you say, this is an in-breath, you could say, this is the desire to be with someone when I'm not with that someone. This kind of thinking is expressed in Buddhism by... Firewood is firewood and ashes are ashes.

[22:48]

Now, this is a famous statement. And what it means is that firewood is not the past of ashes. Firewood is not the prior state of ashes. And of course, in some senses, firewood is the past of ashes. But... As Sukriya used to say, firewood has its own past, present and future, which is not the same as ashes. It's a very ecological way of looking at things. Because firewood also has its past as a tree and its future as forests and so forth. And the simplest way I've thought of expressing this is that pig is not the past of pork.

[24:14]

Pork is part of a human history of eating meat. that's inflicted on somewhat unwilling pigs. So pigs have their own past, present and future. Pork has its own past, present and future. This is a part of what's meant Here where it says, the wind is pure and the moon is white. Each rests in its own lot. This is also, each one of you is the world-honored one. So, the desire to be with someone when you're not with them is not the same as being with them.

[25:26]

At the level of generalization, it's very close to the same. But it's actually different from being with a person And it's different than the desire to be with them when you're with them, which is also not fulfilled. It's also different from the desire to be with someone which is not fulfilled even though you're with them. So now we have two states of mind. State of mind where something is perceived as missing. And a state of mind where you feel complete. Where nothing is missing. Now in practice what you do is, if we try to make this technical, is when a desire arises from a feeling of being incomplete.

[26:41]

In your practical and comparative state of mind, you make a plan to see this person or not or whatever. But at the same time, in a morph... fundamental way, you merge, you enter into a kind of toothache feeling in your heart of this feeling of something missing, which takes various forms, sometimes sunsets and sometimes CD players. And you and you merge that toothache in your heart with a feeling of completeness.

[27:47]

And this isn't to get rid of the feeling of incompleteness, it's to move to another state of mind which joins the completeness and the incompleteness. It's not that you want to let go of the feeling, but you melt it to reach another state of mind or to enter it. Aha. Aha. And then when you're with your friend and you have the feeling of wanting to be with him or her and not feeling it's entirely possible because they seem unable to be really present

[28:54]

Or something's on their mind. Or you feel unable to be open. who in the same way take that feeling and that toothache in your heart and merge it with the feeling of completeness again. And it's an interesting little space you can begin to discover. And the act of doing that enters you into a kind of topography that some people might call spirit or soul, where your friend may suddenly feel open toward you. Or you may suddenly feel at ease with them.

[30:13]

And accept them even if something's on their mind and not feel distant. Now, I'm not promising any quick results. But there is a kind of practice like this. And if you do it and have a feeling for it, it's... It, surprisingly enough, sometimes works. When you begin to feel more surfaces between you and the world, or joining you and the world, more surfaces join you and your friend. No. You could, you know, this koan is interesting.

[31:20]

You could say, what is the ultimate dimension of being or Buddhism? And you could say, emptiness. The big E. The big E. But he says, what's the price of rice in Lu Ling? So here, he's clearly emphasizing some kind of action. On the one hand, you have to assume what state of mind is Ching Yuan in when he's asked the question. And so let's assume he's in immediate consciousness. That's what you're supposed to assume most of these Zen guys are in. At least when monks come up and ask them questions.

[32:32]

Oh, here comes a monk. You take off your earphones. Okay, ready? And from that point of view, you can say, what is the price of rice? It's like... Why are you bothering me? It's not relevant to... immediate consciousness. The great meaning of Buddhism is not relative. No Buddhism, nothing. But at the same time if the monk's question is real and the monk has a certain energy coming up even if twined with borrowed consciousness, That energy will immediately bring up energy in Ching Yuan, whether he wants to or not.

[33:37]

Just like you might throw a painting down his throat or a poem down his throat and haul the string back. So he has an answer that comes up, which he probably doesn't entirely know where it came from. He isn't thinking, oh, this is a real smart answer. Something comes up. Even though he's a person of power who can't even lift his foot. Or because he's a person of power and can't lift his foot, something comes up. And comes up with a statement that touches many levels.

[34:42]

And you hear in a kind of deep voice coming from somewhere, what is the price of ricin? And the monk feels the words more than he even hears them. And you can see the emphasis here because they come up with things like, as examples, peaceful government. And peaceful government isn't saying peaceful emptiness. It's saying peaceful government. And it doesn't say... Emptiness has no sign.

[35:52]

It says the accomplishing work of great peace has no sign. And the first question here... The commentary starts out with, what work should be done so as not to fall into steps and stages? So clearly the answer in this koan is not emptiness. But some kind of action. And as of old early spring is still cold. So this is really very practical Buddhism.

[37:02]

Coming back to your breath as the way. And the accomplishing work of great peace has no sign. It has no mark. It has no handle. What are you going to do? How do you do something when there's no handle, no mark, no sign, et cetera? This requires a certain subtlety. Emptiness, that's hard. But here, it may require subtlety, but there's something you can do. Emptiness is difficult. But here it may require subtlety, but there's something you can do.

[38:28]

Some attitude, some intention. And you can feel it, like in Suzuki Roshi says, you won't be successful if you work too hard on it. Do not carry too much. These are attitudes that you bring into the facets of each moment. Where borrowed consciousness and immediate consciousness intertwine. Now, I think it's easier to move toward this great peace which has no sign When you remember the uniqueness, the incomparability of each thing, of each particle of each moment, when you remember that the

[39:45]

desire to see someone when you're not with them it's a desire that arose in your immediate present and can be satisfied in your immediate present it grew out of your immediate present And its satisfaction is not only in the future. It can grow out of the immediate present and it can be satisfied and realized in the immediate present. That's a kind of faith. And it's It's at the centre of practice. It's kind of like a point you can touch. Can I say it? It's the center of practice that you can touch.

[41:11]

And yet it's always not quite there. Like the price of rice. We don't know. There's a certain ambiguity. Yes. And yet we keep moving into the center of that ambiguity. And in this way we're on the way. I think we did some good work today together. And I appreciate it very much. So I think, again, as I said, in this fine, mild, pleasant day. I didn't say wunderbar.

[42:15]

I said fine. This guy's got some muscles, gee. So I think let's sit for a few moments. Can you save it till tomorrow? I hate to take the immediate present away. If you can, without furniture. Is everybody okay? Sleep all right? Good night. Do you have any bright ideas at Einstein? And are you OK? OK. You had something you wanted to say yesterday afternoon.

[43:43]

I wanted to ask something. Sitting is one side. Sitting? Sitting is one side. Koan work is the other side, so to say, the kendo side, she said. And this takes some time. Kensho side. Kendo. Sword fighting? Yes. Oh, okay. This takes some time, of course, to develop and be able to be practiced. Don't talk to me, just speak English. I feel better if you're sitting. So one side is sitting and the other side is kendo.

[44:47]

Corn work kendo. And what else? Well, my question is, how long does the other side take to get familiar with, to get into the art of it? It takes a separate time, out from the time we need for developing the city. Okay, is it all been said in German, too? Yes. Okay. So, again, how long does the other side take, so to speak, to get familiar with, to get into it? Yes. So what you're asking is, or suggesting is, that sitting is a practice which has its own development, and the koan work, study, is another kind of practice that relates to it.

[45:49]

Yes. Well, if that was my experience, I wouldn't teach koans. I wouldn't teach koans. If I say to somebody, I suggest it might be a good idea to try zazen. That's one statement. Then I might say, it's actually a good idea to try to sit still and not fiddle too much. The second statement. Then I might say, it's nice to sit a little longer, maybe 30 or 40 minutes, not just five.

[46:56]

And then I might say, it's good to pay attention to your, give attention to your breathing. Now after I've said things like that, and maybe I can think of a few more simple things like that. And each one of those is a statement based on the preceding statement. Mm-hmm. If I want to say more, I have to start speaking like koans. The next levels of instructions begin to sound like koans. Like, okay, now you're paying attention to your breathing. Have you noticed that you're already enlightened? Oh, well.

[48:20]

So now I'm talking about koans. Now, it's true, as you say, that koans is a particular lineage approach to practice. And it's the particular Zen way of developing your sitting. And there's other ways of developing your sitting. So in that sense, then, koans have their own development. And as you brought up yesterday the historical situation of the koans, and I would add the historical communication of the koans, that's something we could look at today, actually, a little bit.

[49:29]

Okay, anything else? Someone else? Yeah, I pass. You said that on the way you have to trust yourself more and more. And what can one do to make this work better, to increase the trust? The gradual approach is to approach it in a kind of craft-like way.

[50:48]

Like doing each thing completely. Anyway, there's various gradual approaches, but also there's the direct approach, which is just to meet your trust and lack of trust directly. When you first sit down, you can take some point like that. When you first sit down, say, do I trust my body? Do I trust my mind?

[51:59]

Do I trust my psychology? And if you can't answer yes, then you immediately sit in the middle of that distrust. And that becomes the first koan of your practice. And you don't let loose of that until you can sit with trust. And unless it starts making you sick, then you can back off a little, but you come back to it each time you sit. The feeling till you can come to a trust. You really can't go very far in practice till you have that trust. Okay. But trying gradual ways helps too.

[53:08]

You do both. Let me say about studying koans in relationship to sitting. You study them, you know, the example image I always use is wave follows wave and wave leads wave. Cohen's study leads your practice. And your sitting practice leads your koan study. And you don't get three waves ahead. And you stay. They stay very closely connected. We're not in a university here trying to You don't have to write a paper on the history of koans at the end.

[54:09]

We only are studying them in relationship to your practice. And I'm frankly using koans because I like to... find a new way to teach and practice with you every seminar. And after teaching in Europe from 84 about until 87, I sort of ran out of simple things to say. I mean, I just didn't have the resources in myself in relationship with you to teach without using the tradition more.

[55:20]

I mean, I need an excuse to talk about certain things. Yeah. So I... You know, it's like if I went on to... A bus here in Berlin. And I said to the... I asked the driver to stop for a moment. And Neil was with me, of course, because I'm dependent on him. Tell the bus driver to stop, would you? And Neil does that. And then I say, Neil, would you please say in... For a few minutes at this intersection, we're going to talk about the three layers of practice within the three realms of being.

[56:24]

I mean, people would say, bus driver, would you throw this guy off? We have to go to work. So I feel like that when I first sit down in front of a seminar. All you wonderful people have places to go. Why should I tell you about three layers of practice within the three realms of being? And if I'm not careful, and I start too quickly, and even when I am careful sometimes, about halfway through the seminar I feel people, I'm going home tonight. So I have to find some way in which you want to hear about the three layers of practice. And some things are, it would be, there's a certain subtlety to practice which it would feel funny if I just laid on you.

[57:55]

It has to come up in a certain context with a certain permission. So I use the koans and what happens when we talk about them to get that permission. So anyone else? Yes? I have a question about emotion. And I just started to practice and I made the experience that my emotions and also my body sensations became much stronger.

[59:14]

And one time it's nice, the emotions and body sensations are nice, but on the other hand I dislike it, because also we feel our anxiety or angry feelings or bad body sensations at the next point, and I really don't know how to deal with this. Could you say that in German, please? Yes. It was also online, and we were also afraid that it would affect the health of the children. I don't know what to do. Yeah, that's true.

[60:25]

Das stimmt. It stimmt. That's what you tell the waiter, too, when you give him a tip. Stimmt. Stimmt, that's right. Just as it is. So, stimmt in the here and now. That works. Okay. Hmm. Well, this koan says right in the first page, I do not even practice the holy truths. I do not even practice the four noble truths. And this is the first teaching of... the Buddha after his enlightenment.

[61:39]

But, of course, we also have to practice the Four Noble Truths. And the first is that there is suffering. And the second is that there is a cause of suffering. And the third is that because there's a cause of suffering, there is freedom from suffering. And the fourth is there's a way to realize this freedom from suffering. And that way then is into the Eightfold Path, which is the next big step. And the third step after that is koans. Okay. But we shouldn't rush through the Four Noble Truths too fast.

[62:42]

Okay, I heard that the first noble truth is that there is suffering. Yeah, I understand that. How do we get quickly to the third step? I want to skip the first two steps. Without bringing the cause, I want to get right to the end of it. It doesn't work that way. We have to practice each step. The first... Noble truth doesn't mean just that suffering is inflicted upon us. One of the sufferings is the avoidance of suffering. So this isn't just... a statement that there is suffering and it's being inflicted upon you.

[64:13]

But the first noble truth is, do you have the knowledge of suffering? And do you have the capacity for suffering? So sitting actually develops your capacity for suffering. And if you sit a long time with your legs in a pretzel, it increases the suffering but in general sitting doesn't increase the suffering but it increases your awareness of suffering Because it increases your capacity to accept suffering.

[65:21]

And that's just something you have to go through. And sometimes the first kensho or realization experience is preceded by a kind of underground current in you being aware of suffering, but you keep denying it. And suddenly a dam breaks in you and you just start weeping. And when that dam breaks, you just don't weep for yourself, but everything makes you weep. The falling of the petals of flowers makes you weep. So it's good to sit more Because the problem is, practice is such that it's hard to go back once you started.

[66:45]

If you can stop practising casually, then you haven't really practised. If you can stop practising casually, then you haven't really been practising. It's like saying, you can stop sleeping. And what I meant practically by saying you should sit more is that to really increase your capacity for accepting suffering, the shortcut is to learn to sit still. And to learn to sit still without rigidity or forcing yourself. The Japanese... Prussian posture is not necessary.

[68:11]

You know, it's good to sit still, but there also should be a feeling of relaxation about your body. Because if there's not relaxation, then nothing's getting in. Or out. And of course, just to continue a moment more on your question, when you have more courage... And when you have more confidence in your still sitting because you realize you can go through almost anything without acting on it because you are sitting still. You find you feel things much more deeply, powerfully and wildly than you realized when you were more civilized.

[69:29]

So if people ask you what you do every Thursday night... When does the Berlin Sitting Book meet? Sunday? The Berlin Sitting Group, Sunday morning. So if somebody asks you, what do you do every Sunday morning? Do you go to church? No, no, I practice uncivilization. Oh! Yeah. Something else? Yes? I have a problem which is a bit similar but different too. When I was in the beginning meditation, it was hard because my legs were all without me, you know.

[70:31]

True that. Why are you saying that? Yeah. I've heard about that. And now I'm problem because I relax and I am, especially in evening or morning, I begin hard dreaming. I can't concentrate anymore because I forget, like a film or so, and sometimes I Does it go over, you mean does it stop? Does somebody want to say that in the mother tongue? I don't want to hurt myself sitting there.

[71:32]

But it also has the advantage of being able to concentrate. In terms of development, I have relaxed a lot. And the point is that now I can get into a slump. I lose my concentration. It's like a film. Yes, quite good. That was quite good. When you sleep... I mean, sometimes when you sleep in meditation, you are... I mean, you can be really asleep taking a nap. But usually when you sleep in zazen, you're in a kind of transitional state.

[72:36]

And it's actually... There's certain contents... of our mind and attention that are coded, like some files in your computer can be coded so they can't be opened. So there are certain files, memories, attentions that are coded with these cannot be opened until Christmas or when you're asleep. So Christmas, enlightenment day hasn't come yet. So these things are only open during sleep. So they start to open in your zazen and they make you sleep a little bit to have them open. So the trick or the practice is not to get rid of the sleepy feeling so much, but to find out how to become awake in that sleepy feeling.

[73:57]

Almost as if you were diving into the water of sleepiness and then surfacing out in the middle of the lake. Yeah, but it's also good to, you know, maybe take a five-minute nap before Zazen. Okay, something else? Yes. Yes, please. This was related to what you said yesterday, that sometimes you wish to be together with someone, but that you can't do it right away, and the conversation we had afterwards about the answer to the question that Roshi gave.

[75:24]

And then I thought, I have a feeling about the past. If something beautiful has happened in the past, then the question arises, what a pity that it is no longer the case, that it is over. But that I now slowly notice that for me, when I think about it, that I can get the feeling back and that I still have it, that it is not sad, but very beautiful and that I am happy that I had it. I think that we are somehow together. Yesterday we had a talk at Einstein and that related to what you said about when you want to meet somebody for example at sunset and you can't it can't be done still you have the feeling and my question was what came up to me is in my past, my own past I can I have many remembrances of course and

[76:52]

I can sort of get them up or lift them up and they are not sad but they are beautiful. And in what way does this relate to what you said yesterday? about you have the feeling you want to see somebody and you can't, and now you have the remembrance and the emotional contents and the energy of a past event or a past meeting, something what happened, and what is this relation to that? How does that relate to the present, you mean? But it's your present. I don't think it's really any different than sometimes a song pops up.

[77:57]

And certain songs will pop up on certain... Certain days there are certain smells or certain... And I think what happens again when you practice it is that the membrane and the reinforcement of distraction that keeps the unconscious unconscious. In other words, as Thich Nhat Hanh pointed out this last weekend, in order to not face the... or not look at or deal with many things, and they're not necessarily negative. Because they may be beautiful things which ask us to lead a different kind of life.

[79:03]

So to keep that sort of a little bit pressed away, we distract ourselves. Now the problem with that is the distractions usually, as Thay Thich Nhat Hanh would say, water the seeds of the negative things more than the positive things. In other words, the distracted, busy state of mind increases the negativity in our life. So what happens when you have a more calm and clear and solid state of mind?

[80:11]

And when you have the kind of built-in courage of stillness sitting, even while you're doing things, many more associations than used to will start coming up. And in your daily activity, there's a thinner and thinner film between conscious and unconscious. And then the skill of daily living becomes making a choice. Because you don't have this sealed-in vinyl present. Vinyl? With Y-stick? Yeah, with Y. Lucky with Y, yeah. which controls your behavior, you begin to have a much more complex and soft present consciousness.

[81:32]

So then the layer of intention in your practice comes more into play because it organizes the complexity. Does that point to what you brought up at all? All right, then how would you answer your question? What answer would you like that would give me a clue? For me it has more to do with the time. It's more on the level of time. What time? But how is that, if you're living it, how is that other than the present?

[83:04]

If it's in you, it's not the past. And it's as unrelated to the past as, you know, pig is to pork. And it's as unique as missing somebody at noon is not the same as seeing them at six. But you know this, so can you move a little farther in what you want to say? I got stuck at this point.

[84:06]

Exactly. Okay. Someone else? But when the world pulls me into this business, for example, someone comes up to me and asks me ten questions, from the foot to the skin, from the back to the ass, and then you have to go to the doctor. Okay. This is Buddha Mark Plaza. This is Buddha Mark Plaza.

[85:25]

Buddha Mark Plaza. This is the marketplace. And let's call this... I don't know if I answered your question. Let's call this borrowed consciousness before Christ... And let's call this immediate consciousness. Okay, I'm going to call this secondary. And this secondary. And let's call this then immediate consciousness. And this barbed consciousness. So when you're, just to give you a picture of these things, when you, most people, when they start practicing, are pretty much addicted to borrowed consciousness.

[86:34]

And there will be... I love jokes I don't understand they make me laugh Most of us are like here and we have to make an effort to get to secondary and an effort to get to immediate consciousness. And sometimes we're doing zazen here in immediate consciousness and we start to fall asleep. And if you don't have Dharma friends, even a good 40 minutes in immediate consciousness, immediately your friends pull your jaw up and you're down here. But then you can have the Zen sickness of stuck in stages and steps.

[87:46]

And you get addicted to immediate consciousness. And then it's very hard to get up. Where you work, here's your office. Well, the problem you are describing is why people live in monastry. There are reasons one goes because you can practice more and so forth. But actually, the deeper reason one goes is because you need... You need a certain space to re-educate yourself.

[89:00]

So you go to a place where you can spend more time without, you know, naturally here. And that's one of the real challenges of lay practice. Without monasteries or the equivalent of monasteries, what do you do? You form sitting groups. You build sangha. You have Dharma friends. But still, you know, it's difficult. I spent the first, as I said, Five years of my practice in San Francisco, pretending San Francisco was a monastery. I used to think, well, it's really a monastery. And I'd say, well, no, it's just a big monastery.

[90:00]

OK, but ideally, you get to the point where, and we could make this a circle. So actually, what we have is a line which is just a circle. And then you're always going around in here. And you can also even say there's another deeper immediate transition that runs underneath. And at first this is very rough, the way I've drawn it, and eventually it gets very, very fine. And this transition is made very easily. But it's a skill. I mean, it's a different way of being alive. You're creating, as Cohen is trying to point out, you're creating a way of being that's different than waking up from sleep.

[91:26]

And it's a different body too. It's not just a different state of mind. It looks the same, but something feels and actually in the long run is different. Now, if you're weak like me, at some point you decide, I just can't, I'm just not good enough to see people in the office. I'm not strong enough to be a lay person. I'm going to become some sort of monkette. Monkette? Monkette? Edding. When you add et to something, it means the female form. Oh, Moncad, yeah.

[92:39]

Moncad, yeah. Munch or Munchen. Yeah, I became a Munchen. So... So I don't know. I lead a lay life partly to find out how to lead a lay life and continue practice. And Thich Nhat Hanh, who I... love and admire and have known for years, is teaching a monk practice in lay life. And I teach a lay practice in monk life. So he says you should not have even a glass of wine. Not even one glass of wine, because your one glass of wine, even though it doesn't hurt you, still is part of a whole confusion in our society.

[93:59]

But my feeling is, I should have a glass of wine with my friends or a beer or something. And it actually tastes quite good. So I don't know, you know.

[94:19]

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