Anybody doesn't want to say something who will. We went through a number of benefits that people found from being here. Some not so tangible, which seemed the strongest. Paul and I have been talking to each other for 30 years without you. Those were things like the atmosphere of a practice place. Support that people feel practicing with one another. The teachings and the practice people feel practicing with you.

[01:03]

And these are things that helped carry the feeling of being here in between the times that they're here. And we talked about a number of things which there was a range of feeling on, both within the group and also within some individuals who felt positive and somewhat questioning. Things like the support of a schedule. not having to make decisions help not to activate a thinking mind,

[02:07]

And also that the schedule also for some people felt constricting or directing them in a way that didn't reflect them and their individuality. A large part of the discussion was around the particular forms that we have. The benefits of a yoga culture, which you've been talking about. And also for some, the questioning of what it means to be in a situation where there's wearing robes and having services and doing quasi-Japanese things. I wonder myself, too.

[03:17]

Okay. Thanks. Someone else? One issue in our group was the translation of the forms of practice into everyday life. Is it possible to transfer it one-to-one or how can we take what we do here? experience and practice here? Is this sort of taking over into everyday life? Is this one to one or is it transformed or as one person said translated? In other words, can I do mindfulness practice while watching TV, for example, which we don't have here?

[04:20]

It's an example. All hearing music going to parties because of red wine. And May I add something to what Paul said? We rather felt or people rather felt and expressed that the strict forms, one word was in German severe, were rather a vehicle to freedom, inner freedom, because I don't have to think about do I have to get up, will I sit or won't I sit and so on.

[05:32]

So this makes inwardly free. So the strictness of the plan here The only time I've ever been able to practice mindfulness with a TV is when it's broken. Then I get real mindful. I'm not mindful enough. So, someone else? Yeah. In our group we mentioned that it has a regenerative effect being here.

[06:44]

And that being here within the Sangha, but also being here with you, supports carrying it on at home. And especially for the sitting, your kind of very differentiating teaching helps. It helps to perceive more while sitting and also to practice some new forms. Some other things which I don't remember. When you say something like, being here has certain effects on being able to continue when you get home and things like that.

[08:42]

I suppose that's natural. I mean, obviously it is. But really, it turns out that that's one of our reasons for existence, or at least reasons people come here, reasons like that. But it's not an explicit reason we created this place. It's just a kind of byproduct. It's kind of interesting to me to hear that sometimes the byproducts become more important than the product. Whatever that means. Anyway, someone else? Yeah? In our group, we didn't feel it was a strict schedule.

[09:46]

It was a supporting and helpful schedule, but not really this strictness. I see. And what I also noticed, and what I find so important, even if you have been at the Johanneshof for a long time, this kind of structure or structured practice, I just can't do at home at all, because I don't have the whole environment. And that this form, for example, or what I found very good now, to do a seminar first, So, for me, what is very important is sort of... I already lost you. I cannot have this structure which Johannes Hof is offering here at home, this type of schedule, especially not over such a long time.

[11:14]

And I enjoyed very much this time going to the seminar and then into the practice week. And it allows me to make different experiences of mindfulness and also of stillness. In our group, the first seminar group, there was this question when the topic was gradual and sudden practice. Is there a difference in how we can feel the physicality of gradual practice and sudden practice? And this was also in now, in the group this afternoon, to see parts of what we are doing here, for example, like oriyoki and how open it is, oriyoki, the whole oriyoki practice and service and chatting, to see this as the possibility of physicalizing gradual practice by just doing the same again and again and again, yeah.

[12:37]

Mm-hmm. We already had the question when it was about the difference between this slow, gradual practice sudden, the sudden practice, that the question arose, how can you feel it physically and is there a possibility to feel a difference in the body between these different views? And this afternoon we came to the conclusion that, for example, this orioki practice, these repetitions, that this is also an example of how to a slow practice, a flowing practice in the body, how to do it physically through these constant repetitions and in relation to objects that you deal with, that you hold in your hand.

[13:49]

In the wake of that translation from practicing in monastery to practicing in so-called everyday life came up the issue of not being judgmental or not categorizing that this belongs to practice and is good and this does not belong to it and is bad, but to be present or to be open to what appears and trying to practice with that. In our group, we also tried to translate the question into everyday practice. The point is not to categorize what belongs to practice and what doesn't, but to try to be present or to feel the flexibility that arises in everyday life. Okay, thank you.

[15:08]

We were a very small group of three women and it was very nice. I think the basic consensus focused on the experience of being here in the group and that it has a great meaning. We were a very small group of just three women And we stressed how important it is to be together in the group and to make these experiences together in a group of people who intend similar things. Retreat cannot have at home without having this group.

[16:26]

And this nevertheless is very important in order to practice at home. To have the experience of a sangha or a group of people who have the similar intentions, even if you only meet with them here, it's helpful when you're at home. Even if you only meet the people here, it is still helpful at home. Yes, we also talked about the orioki, which has a great importance for us to practice mindfulness. And we then also went to other areas where we saw, oh, here we are allowed to learn without And we talked a lot about our yogi and how important this is as a learning experience because we sort of have the allowance to learn without being judged, but by learning by repetition. The other pillar, which was perhaps the most important to me, was the group as a big, important pillar, which gives me energy when I come home, the other was the individual thoughts that I draw from a lecture.

[18:08]

Someone will manifest whether I carry them on for a long time in meditation. And in addition to this one pillar of the group, which is very important, it's also like I carry home some bits and pieces from the lectures which stay with me and... I'm just teasing. And sort of frighten and... Yeah, what do you mean? We also liked the breaks the intermissions before, for example, starting to study and reading the books or before starting to eat, the chanting.

[19:23]

So this kind of gathering together in this and then starting all together. Okay. Yeah? I came back here after the seminar because I just had the need to sit a lot more in contrast to the seminar and on the other hand I came back after the seminar, partly because there is more chance to sit now, but also there is another awareness when meeting people and being together during the practice week.

[20:24]

It's different than the seminary. Yeah, in terms of awareness. Yeah. Yeah. I can only experience this here, this meeting for example in the form of bowing or in the oryoki ritual, sort of where I can meet the other person and fall into him or her, is almost only to be experienced here.

[21:26]

Okay. You know that fellow who left, I think he's left, he's left, who was here for a few weeks or a couple weeks and who, during the seminar, worked in the kitchen instead of participating. What's his name? Fuzzi. Fuzzi. Lutzi. Fuzzi and Lutzi, okay. Lutzi, who was here during the seminar. Anyway, if the practice week had come first, maybe it would have been easier for him to make the transition, because I think he found going from being here quietly for, what, a couple of weeks? A week? A fortnight. A fortnight? And then coming in the seminar, suddenly 55 people or something, he was like, let me stay in the kitchen, please. Yeah. Ingrid seems to agree. Okay, anyone else? Someone else?

[22:29]

Yeah? I'm a little confused by your expression of side product and main product. Oh, I'm sorry. Well, I mean, I'm not going to try to end your confusion. Because I'm confused, too. Okay, someone else? I like this, what pops up in me again and again, is this thing that you once mentioned during a seminar that Zen practice is not so much interested in understanding.

[23:57]

The gate phrases are meant to hold... Help. ...practice in a mantric. Magic way. And today you said again that you are not interested in meaning so much. And for me this is important because I experience that the usual way to deal with things is that I first want to understand and then I can accept. For example, when I'm confused by this by-product, I first want to understand. I'm the same. And I think, I mean, the suggestion you make for me is that to try it the other way around, to first accept, try to accept, and then you can understand maybe.

[25:03]

And this accepting works in a way of, yeah, in a strange way for Westerners, I think. Not with analyzing or doing a lot of things to come into it, but more in holding, doing it again and again. Yes, again in German. I found it interesting what Roshi said during the seminars, that Zen practice is not so much interested in understanding things. First of all, that even these goal-sets are so common, that you simply keep them and repeat them in a mantric way, and that they can be shown like that. And today in the Teisho he said it again, that it is not so much about the meaning of things, And I think that's why this point is important, because my normal approach to things is that I want to understand first in order to be able to accept.

[26:09]

And I think that Zen practice suggests the opposite, that you first try to accept and then maybe to understand. And this acceptance, it happens in a way that I think is remarkable for us, that you don't just examine it and look at it and turn back and forth, but just hold on and be trusted and it can be shown. Now, I so much like to hear from each of you, but if I wait, We won't have dinner, so, especially if I say something too. But please know that you'll do me a favor. Make me a little happier in life.

[27:17]

If you, each of you, at least before we end, will say something. It's hard to make another human being happy and think how easy it is. So we do what four things here in the practice week? Well, five things. We have zazen. And we have a teisho in the morning. And we have a discussion amongst you in small groups. And we have some kind of discussion with me. And we have the evenings free and breaks too, as you said, in which there's some kind of just social contact or social sangha contact or something.

[28:48]

No, this is not a traditional form. It's just something we decided to do here instead of for a week, instead of Sashins always. We could change it. We could make it. I don't know what, but what do you think it is? You don't have to answer now, but you can answer now, but later. Is this a good combination of five things? Do it some other way? What do you think? Okay. Yeah. I like it very much. For me, today or yesterday, I thought that those three consciousnesses, they are similar to poetry.

[30:02]

I think poetry feeds all parts of this. I think the schedule also does it. It's a poetic schedule for me. Okay. Deutsch, bitte. You find it different from the seminar and from Sashinsé in a good way. But a little bit more silence in the morning, I would like. In the years before we were until meal, we were more quiet. Okay. A new rule. No talking till breakfast, till after breakfast.

[31:05]

Okay? Is that all right? Yeah. Any other suggestions for new rules? No, it's not new. It's old. I know. It's an old rule. But I'm offering you a chance to make a new rule if you want. Just until lunch we didn't have. Until lunch? What should we do it to? Until... Less talking until lunch. Yeah, just shout. Yeah. The question we have in the practice period, we have not much talking until after breakfast, I think. Okay, thank you. What else?

[32:07]

Anybody else want to say something? I like it too very much. This kind of... Yeah, yeah. So it's, yeah, like we were talking in the group also, it's... For me it's everything in it, it's deep coming to myself and deep stillness and going totally out and speaking and contact. So it's not like being stuffed in one place and I have to exercise with the bubbles maybe. I have to go to the other person, to hear, to talk and then go back in stillness. Yeah, for me it's very good. Oh, good. Do women like it better than men? I think so, yeah. Do women like it better than men?

[33:08]

Yes? I also like very much the structure plan in the practice week. I like very much the schedule in the practice week because it makes a big shift to the seminar. From the seminar, yes. You can feel it much more, there is more practice. I find it very important, for example, to study this half hour in the morning. There is an opportunity to just be quiet and not to be in the sasen. And I think that's something very, very beneficial and valuable. For me. I notice that now especially.

[34:10]

Also this half an hour of studying time is very important because there I have a chance to be in silence, even maybe not reading and not being in zazen, but just having this time period. I forgot the six things we have studied, too. I said five before the six, yeah. Yeah. Now, shall we eliminate seminars altogether? No, it's okay. The intense is very good, this intense of more mental. Yeah. I thought you were demonstrating how to put on your gas mask. No. Yes? Talking about byproduct and main...

[35:13]

I like this cup, Johanneshof, but the main thing is the delicious tea that's been served. Oh! And to get that taste, it's what I'm coming for. And in order to probably find in my daily life and daily routine this kind of taste, And therefore I'm happy with the decor or the make of this cup, Johanneshof, and this talking about main and by-product. Okay, thanks. And Andreas, you were going to say something? The practice week helps a lot people who come from outside, for example, going from the seminar to the practice week, and then they can go to the session. I see, okay.

[36:53]

You will all stay here until March 12th and there will be the next session. Oh, yeah. Judita gets lonely here sometimes just with a couple of guys hanging out. When I met her in the hall, she was smiling so big. There she was, and it was a smile filling the hall. And I said, well, what's that about? She said, I just met with two other women. We had such a nice time. Yes, when I met her here earlier in the hallway, she shone all over her face and said, oh, I had such a wonderful conversation with two women. Yes. I also feel very comfortable in this practice week.

[37:55]

In the morning it reminds me sometimes of Sashé, when I get up early. I also feel very much at ease during this practice week. In the morning, because of the early getting up, it reminds me of a zixin. The only improvement I would have personally, would be to sit a little longer in the evening. Especially last night, it came to me very briefly. And one suggestion which I would have is to sit longer in the evenings, especially yesterday evening. It seemed very short. Yes, because I talked too much. I'm sorry. Yes, because I talked too much. I'm sorry. A lot has been said about the contact point between thinking and action

[38:57]

To what you were talking about incremental practice and those gears, how you cut and separate thought from action and from emotion, that I didn't quite understand. The difference between the... The different gears. Okay, yeah. Well, maybe I'll come back to it. Well, the practice week is most, if it's similar to anything else, it's most similar to an ordinary day at Crestone during practice period.

[40:00]

Yeah, except in Creston we get up at 3.30 instead of 4.30, but here that would be a little too early unless you're used to it. But other than that, it's pretty similar. There's meals in the Zendo or Yoki meals, and there's a study period, and, you know, rather similar. Except you don't have Teisho every day. You only have it on zero, two, five, and seven days. Yeah. But then you have the Shuzo lectures and you have seminars and, you know, Ottmar was there for a long time.

[41:25]

He built the beautiful stone walls. And here, too. I mean, we're glad you're here, but we miss you there. Yeah, okay. So one thing, is it a good transition from the seminar to this practice week, or should we go from the practice week to the seminar? It's good this way. One before and one after. Like a dumbbell. Yeah, well... It was the first time here for the practice week and I think it's perfectly structured and I think it's unbelievable what's in there in one day after the change.

[42:37]

I find it very well structured, and it's incredible how much variety there is in one day. In the practice. In the practice, yes. For him, it's the first time that he's taken that. Yeah, so first I thought, well, it's probably a mild form of the sin, but I was very much surprised. Yeah, good. I talked with Paul one evening. [...] Especially the Oryoki. I talked with Paul about it and at first I had a lot of resistance against it. Yes.

[43:47]

Because I have the feeling that food is something very personal. It has a lot to do with the individual culture. It gives a lot of support. Because I felt that eating is something very personal, which also has to do a lot with culture and gives also a lot of holding and security. What I experienced with Yogi is a strong feeling of gratitude. And I can't even explain where that comes from. What I experience in Oriyoki is a very strong feeling of gratitude and I don't know where it comes from. And also, although I do not know the people with whom I am eating, it is very much increasing my feeling of being connected with them and also with the offerings to Buddha.

[45:15]

That is the most important thing. I think about it when I take individual elements home. Yeah, and this is the most important part, and I'm sort of trying to figure out how I could take certain elements from it to my home, but that seems difficult. Yeah, it might confuse your family, too. Okay, and so, yes, then we'll keep doing practice weeks. Did you want to say something? Yes, I just want to say that I want to join in on what you said, because this is also my first time here. For me, this is really a very good opportunity to get to know the house, the processes, and what is very exciting for me is

[46:17]

For me it's also the first time that I'm here and I This session, it's a good opportunity for me to learn about the house and also about the schedules here. And the session world is so much different from everyday life, but this practice week... Well, it can be transferred more into everyday life. It reminds me of what you were saying yesterday about Japanese houses.

[47:25]

It's not so closed off, but it's more permeable. I also agree to what the other member said. What I would like to add is that you have the possibility to regulate how much contact or social contact you want to have. If you're sort of more withdrawn, you can... You can withdraw. Go to your room and don't say anything if you don't want. This is what I especially like very much. You can feel out what's good at becoming and what's nourishing and when to withdraw. Okay. Thank you. Yes, what I particularly like is that I have the opportunity here to regulate the intensity or the amount of contact myself.

[48:40]

So when I go back to my room, I can go back to my room or I can talk more or exchange or something, depending on how comfortable it is at the moment. I like that very much. I have the chance to return to the spiritual world again and again, and I experience it as a kind of liberated space that is being created here, and which, through these structures, is very helpful for my everyday life, to be very Shin-like in the morning and Sinina-like in the afternoon. kind of normal life and I'm coming back to Johanneshof and I experience this more like a freed area or an area with less influence from society.

[49:48]

and where we can just practice sessing like in the mornings and more seminar like in the afternoon, that it can be closer to the so-called everyday life. Mm-hm. And the way you are asking, what can we change and what do you like, shows me that there is an opportunity, like it's an open room where we can find out what we need, what we want, what's necessary for us and society.

[50:59]

So I like this, it's open. space within the framework of Buddhist practice. Maybe we could say that... You know, well, first, Responding to what Frank said about what I said, I'm not particularly interested in understanding things there. Well, that's not quite right. Meaning, I said. So, going back to Frank's remark, I'm not really interested in the meaning of things. But of course if I say these words, understanding, meaning, they're all kind of similar words in English.

[52:09]

But let's speak about the emphasis on acceptance first. As Frank brought up. Acceptance first is a way of approaching things that emphasizes insight rather than understanding. Or if we take something like Gerhard and others' experience with the Oryoki.

[53:09]

If you try to explain Oryoki eating to people, well, you're trapped behind these bowls. You can't get up. It sounds terrible. But if you just do it, after a while, there's something about it that you can't talk about, but there's something that happens. As Ottmar pointed out, too. But if you look at the kind of archetype of the pure mathematician or the scientist trying to understand something, They just keep accepting what's there, accepting the information, accepting all the versions of the, say, way a mathematical problem has been presented.

[54:23]

At some point, something happens outside of usual thinking and you have an insight into how to solve the problem. So I think that it is a kind of style within a yogic culture, a body-rooted culture. To not just respond from the first things you think of, but let your body and your mind, your feelings get involved for a while before you try to understand something. So I don't go too long again.

[55:24]

I've only got five minutes. Let me... If I change my legs, maybe I'm going to be a long time. You'll have to see. And I see you've all asked Peter to not ask any questions like yesterday, where he asks a long question and gets a short answer. Yeah. See where I could sort of like, what can I say?

[56:43]

I said, what can I say? These are important to translate because I want you to think, what can he say? Paul Valéry, the poet, he says something like, the bottom of our mind is paved by crossroads. And often we're locked into emotions, feelings, dreams, etc. And how can we communicate with each other when we're each locked into our own dreams and

[57:51]

emotions and so forth. And then something like Paul Valerie says that underneath there's all these viewpoints that are Crossroads paved into our thinking, underneath our thinking. Cemented in. Yes, so what happens? You come to a place like this. And you run into products and byproducts. Und rennst zu Produkten und Nebenprodukten. And sometimes the word vortex is used. Do you know the word vortex? It's the same in German, like a whirlpool. I know it from the lab. She's a scientist.

[58:54]

And sometimes our thinking is likened in Buddhism to a vortex. Once you start thinking and associating and have memories, it kind of sucks everything into that condition. So in a way, we could say that a place like Johanneshof is attempting to reverse the spiral. Or stop the movement of the vortex. So we have enough sitting to maybe slow down the movement a bit.

[60:03]

Now, we could have more zazen, as you suggested, or something like that, but... Normally we have a 50-minute period in the beginning of the morning, and now we're only having a 40-minute period. But in the practice weeks we often have more new people than we do even in the seminars. And I often recommend to people, you know, they want to come to Sashin, I say, no, come to a practice week first. So we have this emphasis on Zazen, we could have more, but anyway, we have this emphasis.

[61:10]

Now, a question I was going to ask you, or I was thinking of asking if the question you did discuss, I think, came from Otmar and Dieter, Otmar, today. But a question that's been in my mind, but it's not so good for discussion maybe, but I can just... Try to say it in a way that you can keep it in mind. And I actually don't know how to say it even. But something like, how do you resolve your consciousness? How do you make things all right in your mind? Okay. Now, one aspect of... You know, I've actually implied this in the seminar and maybe the practice week already, but now I'm making it more explicit.

[63:09]

And I haven't discovered how to speak about this exactly. Und ich weiß nämlich, wie ich darüber sprechen soll. But Zen practice emphasizes particularly something we could call percept-only mind. Aber Zen praxis, die betont etwas wie den Wahrnehmungsgeist. As a kind of reference. Nur Wahrnehmungsgeist. A kind of reference point in our thinking. I think of a person who, yeah, you're kind of upset or something's happened, you're very disturbed, I don't know what, you're fallen in or out of love, I don't know what.

[64:11]

Yeah, you're depressed or having nervous breakdown, I don't know. And what do people do sometimes? They go wash the dishes. They just sort of do something, you know. That's percept only mind. Just to feel the dishes, the water. That's it. Now, what is the basic practice of mindfulness you can bring into your daily life? Ist mindfulness of your activity? Ist achtsamkeit in deinen Aktivitäten?

[65:14]

Now I'm taking a short step. Now I'm taking a long step. Ja, jetzt nehme ich einen kurzen Schritt oder einen langen. Or now breathing, now this is a long breath, this is a short breath. Now that's percept-only mind. Yeah, or the practice of naming rather than wording. Yeah, or the practice of naming rather than wording. Ah, this is difficult to make the distinction in German. Namen geben statt Worte. Etikettieren. What's the other one? Das eine ist etikettieren und das andere Wort benennen.

[66:16]

Well, what I mean is like Neil is a name. Yes, so Neil is a name. But if I put Neil into a sentence, you know, then it's a kind of word and no longer a name. It functions as a person or something. Yes, but if I put Neil into a sentence, then it becomes more of a word and works differently than the name. So words, the way I'm using it, words are part of sentences and a name is just a name. And it was clear that Sophia learned names first before they turned into words. So naming is a very basic practice. In early Buddhism.

[67:19]

And you use naming to stop thinking. Yeah, so it's bell, cushion, pall, light. So when your percept occurs... Instead of thinking about it, you just name it, and that stops the thinking. So we could call that percept-only mind. Now, a schedule at a place like Johanneshof is organized... On the one hand, to allow zazen. In a way to stop the spinning of the vortex, thinking in associations.

[68:22]

And to design the schedule so you're more or less in percept-only mind, if possible. It doesn't mean you don't think, but it just means that... Your percept-only mind is a kind of reference point more. No, for example, tea ceremony or the orioke requires perceptual attention to what you're doing. And it's not a TV dinner. And it would be kind of hard to practice mindfulness. of your orioki and watch TV at the same time.

[69:46]

Particularly somebody sitting between you and the TV serving you. You get out of the way. So there's an emphasis in practice, in the design of practice, on establishing percept-only mind as the reference state of mind. Now, this is part of what I was saying in the Tay Show this morning. To be embedded, embedded in what you're doing. To be embedded in the phrase you're stating, you're repeating. Really located in the phrase.

[70:49]

Or located in your attention or your breath or percept-only mind. So if you want to carry or continue in a way what Johannesof brings into your life that's different from your usual life, Yeah, you can... Yeah, now, we do the... go on things and hit the drum and the bells and so forth.

[72:15]

Yeah, and I found a little drum in a Chinese furniture store in Freiburg the other day. Somebody bought this big and Dieter got us this nice drum we have. But it's only a couple hundred euro. And the real drums in Japan, they cost 35,000 euros. They're not within our price range. I just bought, well, with some help from friends, a big Korean drum about this big around for Creston. But it was about 5,000 euros, but I paid for part of it, and a friend paid for part of it. We don't know what we're going to do with it yet, but it sits in the sender.

[73:33]

Boom. Boom. Boom. I hear it already. I'm listening. There's the emptiness of Kei Chu's cart and there's the emptiness of the drum. So I'm interested in the material stream of Buddhism. You can really see each other in the material stream. which is part of the percept-only mind. And I've always, when people are hitting the drums and bells, I'm endlessly saying things like, don't hit the bell twice, hit it once and once.

[74:36]

And although I say that all the time, the thing says bell hit twice, so people go... Yeah, also dann machen die Menschen das. I don't know, we do that. And I always say, let the stick hit the bell. I don't want to hear your hand hit the bell. I don't want to hear your mind in your hand hitting the bell. Now all you musicians probably know what I'm talking about.

[75:38]

So somehow, if I hit it like this, Or, you know, like this. If I do it like this, you can feel my hand and my mind saying, now I'm supposed to hit the bell. And this is part of this, Dogen, let things come forward and cultivate and authenticate the self. So you're letting the stick come forward and ring the bell. Hello, little stick. You want to ring the bell?

[76:47]

Oh, sweetheart. Ja, und dann lässt du ihn kommen und sagst, oh, kleiner Schläger, du möchtest gern die Glocke anschlagen. Could you help me? Könntest du mir helfen? Oh, okay. Ja. I'll help you. Ich helfe dir. So, then as much as possible you let the stick hit the bell. Also, weitestmögliches lässt den Schläger... So let's sit for a few minutes.

[77:15]

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