What would you like to talk about? Or what should we look at, what do you think we should look at in this case, at least for a little while? The question about that phrase, where do the ancients go to rest, just the question, why do they also point that question just here? The beginning of the koan? Isn't it a trap or something to prove the student where he is? Isn't it a what? A trap. A trap. A trap. Or something to prove the student where he is. Yeah, we ought to say that in the Deutsch. Yesterday in the middle, it's a bit of a question for me, why this sentence, where do the old ones rest, why this sentence is there at the beginning.

[01:03]

And it's the question for me, whether it's a fall, or whether it's just about checking the student, where he is himself. Okay, well, first, this idea of parts of the case being meant to trap you or mislead you or lead you, you know, et cetera, down another path... I wouldn't emphasize that too much as being... You know, it's not so... It's not as prevalent as it looks. That's obviously obvious, very pervasive. Usually... Usually what we tend to maybe take too often as traps or something to mislead us is more a kind of way of speaking.

[02:28]

In other words, There's a certain irony, but I even use the word irony with hesitation. It's more like the words are looser from the situation, less directly tied to the situation described than our words. In other words, our custom is that our words are a description of reality. Or they attempt to be. My impression in Asian culture in general, I can't speak for it all directly, but certainly what I know about it, and especially Japan.

[03:40]

Words are their own reality and refer to themselves first and not to what they describe. Words are a reality that run parallel to the physical reality. I don't know if that makes sense, but it's almost like this room would be perceived as table, plant in the window, walls and so forth, speaking to each other in terms of the physical objects. These physical objects speak with each other. I translated after that what you said.

[04:51]

Oh, I don't know what I said. It's not like constructing reality from words. It's that words are separate from the person. And separate from what's being described. The word table is separate from the object. And also for me, as I see it, I can take the word table and Yeah, you want to say that in German? Yes, that these words themselves are related to each other, speak to each other, and not just a description of the phenomenon. Yes, but not only a description, but you can also take part in the process. I construct my world with the words I use, but I see that this is something else.

[05:55]

The words are separate from the person who uses them. I can grab them. I'm not here trying to make a philosophical point. But I'm speaking about it in the way that I am, in the way Christina is too, and so forth. Because if you really get get what I'm talking about it's actually it can be even a kind of little satori experience for you because it comes out when it's it comes to when it's fully recognized as very loose fitting together world Everything is quite independent.

[07:07]

So it's also, strangely enough, it turns on things like this thing I mention a lot, which is we see space separating things. In a yoga culture, the fundamental experience is to see space connecting things. Strangely enough, when you see everything as being connected merely by its existence, Connected just because it shares space, shall we say. I recognize that my words are fumbling in saying these things. But when you have that feeling of space connecting, then you can let everything loose.

[08:20]

It's already connected. You don't have to make any effort. So you don't have to make any effort with the language to tie language to the world. You can let the world go. And you can call the table a horse. It still remains a table. It's fun to call it a horse. Hey, let's ride the table. Let's gallop through lunch. You know, it doesn't make any difference. So that sense of looseness is in these koans. So you can call somebody something or not. There's one sentence at the commentary, the third part.

[09:33]

It's also necessary when encountering circumstances and meeting conditions to turn them around and return them to oneself. That would be one step further. Well, this is... You better say that during... Well, my tesho yasti turned on that sentence and the first sentence of the next paragraph. Well, what he was reading... He was reading here, it's also necessary... So that sentence and this sentence.

[10:52]

So that sentence and this sentence. But let me come back to Peter's point a moment. In general, the pointers and the introduction are pretty straightforward. They seldom play games. They're really just simply to help you read the koan. They're not part of the narrative. And the case and the commentary are part of a narrative which you step into the stream.

[11:59]

When you're in the case, in the commentary, you're an actor in this story. The point of this script, we can call it a script, is meant to make you a participant in the script. And the koan really works again when you become one of the players along with Bai Zhang and Matsu. But the pointer or the introduction is a little bit like the theater manager came out on stage before the curtain went up He came up and said, well, I'm glad you're all here and you should all notice that these two men, Baicheng and Matsu, are going to do such and such.

[13:05]

I hope you enjoy the play. And please notice blah, blah, blah. So the pointer... It's only at this point we share the same language. So the pointer and the introduction are almost always outside the stream or outside the script. It may... I don't want to mislead you, it may duplicate a complication of the script in some way, but it's then just presenting a duplication or a duplicity that's in the script. Christian? Nailed it, oh yeah.

[14:16]

Inverting the... Aha, yeah. Yeah, I think that's... Yeah, turning the... He's referring to Hakuin's phrase to invert the Vijnanas. Do you want to say that in German? I think that's just the point. Now, so if we look at that sentence now, it's also necessary when encountering circumstances and meeting conditions to turn them around. And that's just what I meant yesterday when I was saying something like they were both walking along in the present, but Matsu knew that Baicheng wasn't making use of the present.

[15:46]

And because we're right here, this is a present, we're right here in a present. You may all be very conscious in this present. But do you know the ma point, the point where you can take hold of this present and turn it? That's why speaking out is considered so fundamental, so essential and so dangerous. So, as it said on page 313, and says, Shredo settles the case, he says, speak, speak. The last paragraph. The last paragraph. And it says, this is where Schwaydo turns himself around.

[17:22]

When you say, speak, speak, you must be ready to disappear and reappear on the voice of the person who speaks. And we know that because sometimes when it's necessary to speak, you can feel your heart start to beat and you feel actual fear. And that's the time when you most should speak, going through that fear. And that is the point where you should speak and go through this fear. To die. I'd like to suggest that, you know, I think we've had some insight into this case and we can continue talking about it too, but I'd like to also suggest that

[18:30]

Let's be free to talk about any of the three cases or anything, any aspect of practice that you're interested in. Yeah. Let me say something about the case, this case one, one thing. I would like to add something to this case. In this case there are three scenes and we could say three realities that penetrate each other. In general in cases, I don't know, I'll end up with three or four or two, but in general in these cases, to some extent, various situations mirror each other.

[19:47]

There's such a fundamental view in the Orient that life is macro and microcosmic. That's just a kind of way of looking at things. Non-philosophically it's just kind of accepted that the small mirrors the large and the large mirrors the small. So that the individual him or herself is also a mirror image of the universe. You're not just part of the universe. cosmos integrated in the cosmos, you are also an entire cosmos yourself, mirroring the full cosmos.

[20:58]

And that's not less like physically worked out or believed, it's just a kind of way of thinking. So more often than not, the ducks flying will represent the two men walking. So there will be a turn between the two men walking and the ducks flying and a difference between them. So on the one hand, you have this interpenetrating universe of the ducks, and the poem shifts it to the duck's point of view. And Matsu was talking with the ducks.

[22:04]

And he told them all about the scene of the clouds and the mountains and so forth. So the verse, I mean the story, the case is about the men seeing the ducks. The poem turns into the ducks seeing the men. So these two worlds interpenetrate. But they're They're understood, and particularly in YN philosophy, as being each one a separate world which, without any gap, interpenetrates the other.

[23:08]

The duck's world, or the forest's world, or the mountain's world, or your world, or Baizhang's world, and Matsu's world, they're all different and simultaneously interpenetrating. That's one view that's in this call. And then there's the more passive present, which they're both walking in, a present which includes everything. But is rather passive. You're just present in the situation. You haven't taken hold of the situation. And that's usually the world of mindfulness practice. And Zen says this is not enough. So the next is the world as it arises and you specifically experience it as arising from you.

[24:27]

This is where the sense of construct comes up and it's important to look at the case which we won't have time to do and why they talk about it as a construct. And of course the reason it comes up, and this is an early point, this is a middle case in this early book, Developing Chinese Zen Teaching. Yeah, they're emphasizing teaching devices. Because clearly, at least to some extent, Matsu creates a situation, creates waves in order to teach bhajan. And even though this teaching in a ghost cave, living in mixes, living, working in a ghost cave, is a complement, a reverse complement to Matsu,

[25:39]

So, because this brilliant remark wouldn't have ever flown away, you can't say anything more positive than that. So all you could do is say something that sounds like the opposite. But there is the sense here that all teaching and everything on one level is living in a ghost cave. And so he makes this construct to teach. But they're making the point that enlightenment itself is not a construct. The gate to enlightenment is a construct.

[26:53]

Okay. So also there's the teaching in here of the visionas, and all of this is a construct. So I am creating that plant, and in every way that plant really exists for me, I'm creating it within my sense fields. In a passive sense, it is affecting me, but it's real as an actor in my life. I'm participating in creating it as an actor. And all this is tied together by the sense that when have they ever flown away is the world in which there's no distance. It's like I make the example of using the phrase just now is enough.

[28:07]

In the divided world of course just now is not enough. In the undivided world, in fact, just now is exactly enough. And this is more fundamental at the level of understanding and health. In a similar way, you could say, yes, of course, the ducks have flown away. And on the other hand, there's no place for the ducks to fly to. When you think they've flown away, you're in a state of mind which isn't really present. Because if something has flown away, then everything is always flying away.

[29:17]

So there's no meaning to say that everything's flown away because everything is always flying away. Even the ground is flying away under your feet. So from another point of view, you can say nothing ever flies away. And this koan is emphasizing that state of mind where there's no distance, no time. In which everything is knowledge, hopefully profound knowledge of today's affair. Now there's also another turn to the phrase flown away. It's like Dogen's dropping mind and body.

[30:21]

Because you can also turn this flying away to mean give everything away. No eyes, no ears, no nose. Flown away. And you could say at that moment Bai Zhang flew away. Matsu flew away. The geese flew away. Sorry. And I'd like to have anyone who's really a few more minutes who said very little or nothing possible to pipe up. And also... You know, I'd also be interested in your comments now, or at lunch or whenever, on whether you thought this was a good way to go about looking at the cons with this combination of one discussion together, one taste show, and this discussion, the separate groups and the kind of schedule we had, because it could be done various ways.

[31:39]

This is just what I... I didn't know really what to do until the day before the Khan study and then the seminar started and then I decided to try this. Well, we don't have much time left, but I would like to hear something from someone who has said nothing or very little so far. And then, of course, a few comments. For you, the structure of this KORN seminar, whether you found it good that we had this large group and then Tesho and then the work in the small groups. Because it basically became clear to me one day before the KORN seminar that we would do it. And I couldn't do anything without Bully Bully. I mean, Ulrika. Petra? Referring to what Micha is saying, it's true that the more often you read these koans, the more lively each sentence becomes. But each koan had one or two more important sentences, at least to me.

[32:44]

And if I think of these three koans, there's one sentence which is outstanding to me. It is, just this is it. From the first quorum we discussed, number 49, it's just, it's just this is it. And this sentence does not refer to the ancients, to the past, to the future. It refers to the present, to here, right now, right here. It's a kind of duty or task. for myself to lift this sentence. If I refer to what Michael said, that the more often you read the koans, the more alive the sentences become. That's true, but in every koan I found one or two sentences particularly important to me. And if I now pull together all three koans and the most important sentences from each koan, only one remains. That's this sentence.

[33:46]

It's just a set. It's just a set. It's just a set. Just now. Just now. I wanted to say something in addition. I have a strong feeling that in the Korans there are statements that are not written directly. And that a situation is created, a clear situation is created, which makes something so clear that you can't express it with words, that you can make it clear in a situation. My feeling is that in each koan there are sentences or statements that can't be grasped intellectually, but that they become clear within a situation, within a context.

[35:03]

Yeah, I think so. And each of these statements can be approached by saying it directly, Or saying it indirectly by taking away what interferes with just this is it. Do you realize enlightenment or do you drop away ignorance? Or you can say, just this is it. For someone else it might be already here. Or it might be no place to go and nothing to do. Which is another way to approach just this is it. And it's also with the force of your own being the statement has to be present.

[36:16]

And then each circumstance, tomorrow, the next day, can turn the statement. What I'm trying to say that we discuss these things together and through this non-verbal kind of expression of things these things are discussed. Yeah, I agree. And we could have also included Doksar in this week. Someone mentioned it, so I... Yes, Mark. I like, especially the small groups, where people come together and share their own personal experience.

[37:19]

And this coin was just for me something which sets the stage for exchanging this experience and creating some gift from people's IP and what I experience. And it's a boost for other people to call to services. And therefore, I like these small groups. This is a good thing for a lot of people to speak, and not just all you speak up for all you children. Yeah. It was really nice to share a lot of people's own experiences. And the goal for me was to get people to share their experiences with us. I think that the small groups are particularly helpful for getting a lot of people involved, not just to get involved in the big group. Yeah. Actually, I think that's the most important point.

[38:22]

And whether we should try to do the... If we do find a place to do a future week next year or the year after, whether we should try to have more time to meet together or this plus the formal and informal time was enough. Whether the formal and informal time we had was enough, or if next year or the year after we should have more time where the small groups or the equivalent... I tried to make the schedule pretty loose so there was informal time too, including the change of rhythm of having one afternoon and evening off. But I think it's important to notice that although we're studying the vertical lineage, What we're studying is their horizontal lineage.

[39:48]

We're studying the relationship between Matsu and Baizhang and Dungsan and so forth. So it's almost like you study the horizontal lineage through the vertical lineage and it awakens our horizontal lineage. This is actually a difference in schools between what's called Tathagata Zen and Ancestor Zen. Tathagata Zen emphasizes understanding through the Dharmakaya, understanding through enlightenment itself. And ancestor Zen emphasizes understanding through others.

[40:51]

And the realization that's come to through another is considered in Zen deeper and also more profoundly affects other people. Through another and then transcending your teacher. Okay. Do you want to say something? Yes, I also liked the work in the client groups very much and I also made a very surprising observation that I find the core study with Eng in German easier than on English in Crestone. And maybe we could discuss this again in the afternoon with our client groups. In the sense that I also wrote a note about the tree plan, a small piece that is printed there, to exchange how this bilingualism influences our practice.

[41:58]

Because on the one hand I have the strong feeling that I can express certain things that happen to me in practice in English, also only in English. And on the other hand, the experience was that somehow I could really expand myself more in these choirs in German. As if the German language would somehow penetrate me deeper than the English. I found it very, very important for me to do this with you, with our group. For me, it was a surprise how much more I felt immersed in the quantum and how important it was, in contrast to the experience in... I understood what you said. Yeah, I think we have three languages here, German, English, and Zen language. And the understanding floats around among the three.

[43:02]

And it's quite good to have three languages here. It loosens you up from the world. And I hope you all discover your own language. And I hope you all realize that just this is it. Mm-hmm.

[43:20]

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