So what would you like to talk about? We want to report. Oh, okay. Report or continue? We can just continue the discussion and have to report. But if you report, it's okay too. This means you're first? Oh, yes. And maybe there are other opinions. Yeah, but we're going to take your opinion first. Okay. So, yeah. We were group number two. That's a good start. Very profound. It's like a big story now. The beginning of a big story.

[01:04]

There were three men sleeping in a campfire. We met at the sofa corner. So far, so good. Sorry. What I would like to say first maybe is that what strikes me in this topic of dependent arising is that there seems to be a big relationship going on. So in the moment I say this, what I say is somehow an event in a big relationship going on in this room now, between all of us. And all means also the weather outside, and the lamp shining here, and the paper empty, and whatever. And it's not only so that I have this relationship, or I'm in this relationship, or these words are... I am...

[02:05]

a relationship. And I arise as a relationship in every moment. And this is great. I mean, the moment you start to feel into this, it's really great. And this was one of the points we reached in our group, I think. And before everybody gave a comment to what he or she experienced reading this text from Thich Nhat Hanh and there were difficulties because some found it too abstract and there were, I think for most of us it was a help or at least something that touched Gerd said it helped him to give kind of marking points in this perceiving, in this receiving, perceiving, receiving field we live in that you can, somehow when you, suddenly cake arises.

[03:18]

Quite often. Usually you just try to get something and with the help of the text and the concept of... You can say craving, oh good. You say, yeah, you can sum it out. I'm practicing the 12-fold links. What is this cake? What does it mean? Yeah, you can get a clearer... get a clearer view in what's going on in this relationship with the cake. And maybe so far, for the moment. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Okay. I think where our group has found, at least the point that struck me the most, is that a great relationship is constantly happening. So by saying this, what I say is happening from a relationship that we are all living in at this moment.

[04:26]

And this relationship is not only that I have this relationship or that I can experience myself in a relationship with you, but we are this relationship. That means we live on in every moment as a relationship. And if you let yourself in on that, then it's crazy, it's crazy what is possible to experience in every moment, also in multilayered, multidimensional living. So that's the point that got me the most out of the text, that got me the most out of it, and about which we talked a lot in our group. Before that, each of us gave a short comment on how he or she went about reading the text. And that was partly difficult, because it was perceived as abstract and inaccessible. and partly inspiring and helpful, and Gerhard has again, what he has already indicated in the afternoon or in the morning, has again expressed an example, that a concept can help us, the quite full perception situations that we have for a long time,

[05:47]

Thank you. Oh, it's up to you to say something if you're going to. Well, I'm also one of those who say, oh Jesus, oh gosh, another list or so, when I read all these texts and all these suggestions of we could read great books and all these books are listed on the list and in these books there are again many lists here.

[06:54]

And I find it very helpful how you presented the list and how you suggested we can work with the list and I thought I'd bring that into the afternoon discussion. And we ended up quite a bit in this sort of symbols list that come up in Zazen, pain and acceptance. I mean, everyone has this experience, and to see that as just a list, these are two basic ingredients, and it's a list, and how can we work with that, and this was a good part of our discussion. But having to see a list as an opportunity and just look for other ingredients, maybe a list can help me to figure out, oh, well, this is also an ingredient, and that could be an ingredient, and what about when I add such an ingredient, and to look for those.

[07:56]

And that's very helpful. But I think it really takes a time. It's not enough to read. And I really like this Thich Nhat Hanh text. I don't like reading Thich Nhat Hanh so much, but this is, I think, a very helpful text. But it's not just, well, we read this in the morning and then in the afternoon there's again another text to really put that into practice, to see that as ingredients to work with such a list. I think it takes reading more and more often and again and again and see what I stuck and what I really want to take and what I can't find in my own ingredients and add that and really practice with that. And this was somehow, that was the topic of the discussion. And it was interesting to see, well, we went back to a list every one of us knows quite well from all this experience and sitting here.

[09:05]

And what I like also about this Thich Nhat Hanh text is we had this discussion here in the last Winter Precious Week with you about God and whether there is a God or Buddhism says there is no God and he points that out and everything is this interdependent rising and everything is in everything and nothing exists without the other thing, and then he points it out, well, if you really get that in your experience, then it's not just a discussion whether there is a God or not, then it's somehow obvious that there's nothing before the dependent or interdependent deriving. There's some sort of no beginning not depending on the other things. And this is another way to see, to look, is this a god or is there no god possible when even god depends on us, on everything else.

[10:11]

And I really like that. This is the first time that I get to this idea not just a philosophical idea, is there a God, and not to kind of get a feeling there is no God, or we don't need a God, or something like that. Okay, Deutsch, bitte. Ja, ich... Also, es war ja nach dem Tescho... I also have a long list of books that I have only listed. And then I open books and there are lists again. And then there are also sub-points. Then there is a list and then there is a 4.11 list and so on. And very often I close the book again and say, wait a minute, I don't need another list or that's too much for me now. And I found it very helpful, and Dick Nathan presents a new list here, to hear how you can find your own points with such a list, so to speak, add or become aware that other ingredients can simply come into the sitting through such a list.

[11:36]

And we tried to discuss it, and in the end we ended up in this very simple list, which we are all confronted with, which we all know very well, pain and accepting, which is such a very basic list, and that was a good part of our discussion. And I think it also needs, we now have this Thich Nhat Hanh text and now also again different other texts, and outside there is a giant book, which is now also being copied, with again a few lists, I think, because I've already looked into it. And I think it really takes a very careful reading and reading again and again and also a little bit of reading in this Sazen spirit to complete your own list from such a text, to complete or even come up with such ideas. That could also be part of my list or my ingredients.

[12:41]

And what I like about the Thich Nhat Hanh text is that in the first or second week we had a longer discussion about whether there is a God or not, but this logical consequence also in the experience, when everything depends on each other and one cannot exist or the other, then it is a logical consequence, also in the experience, if you get it, that there is not anything that is independent of everything else, that is, so to speak, at the beginning, and that would be something like a definition of God or an existence of God, and he makes it quite clear that if you practice a ... Yes, it is a realization that there is not such a thing as a creator or something that is not dependent on anything else. And I like that about this text very much. You know, we also, at the beginning of the experience we find difficulties or confusion lists, and then a kind of relief that you offered that simple practice of acceptance

[14:10]

And that was one point. A simple practice. Not the practice itself. Yeah, I know. I'm just teaching. And then there was another view saying that a kind of even joy by... recognizing that each list leads in the same direction or to put it very simplistically that it all boils down to in the direction of realizing emptiness but not codependent arising and that all these lists lead to that and that they are all connected and they form kind of all right so That were the two points that came up and I had a kind of a little bit of shocking experience with trying to work with that acceptance.

[15:20]

realizing when resistance camera and I found when I really look at that that about 95 to 99 percent of my movements beginning with breathing in breathing out and moving the limbs and stuff come out of the spirit of not staying in a situation, but as soon as there's a kind of stopping, if you stop your breath, it gets uncomfortable, and you breathe in. And, okay, it's not, in my experience, it's not that, oh, I suffer and I breathe in, and oh, I suffer and I breathe out. It's a kind of, that's a kind of motivation, really, not to sit still or some movements in the mind. There's a kind of, a strong push in that to change things because it's for some reason it's not comfortable to stay in a situation as it is and just let things appear and just watch them.

[16:32]

What a wonderful recognition. Deutsch bitte. Yes, so in our group there were two perspectives. The first was also that there is confusion and a bit of discomfort with the emergence of jistan and this multiplication and a kind of relief to be offered something like the practice of accepting, to simply understand it, even if it is difficult to implement it. And the second perspective was actually a joy that one discovers that the lists on something very similar or the same goes out, that is, to lead a child to learning. and that the lists are all connected in this, and that it is therefore not such a multiplication and multiplication of lists, but actually always an attempt to reach the same thing.

[17:44]

And my personal experience with the practice of acceptance was to see that very, very many of my movements, starting with inhaling and exhaling, are actually motivated by the fact that I cannot stay in a situation, but that something drives me on, that an attempt, Thanks Tabi? In our group, we also deal with lists, more the topic or the aspect of how do we access the list. And it came up that we answered ourselves, actually, why don't we like lists?

[18:50]

Or maybe it's fruitful for each of us to go to the root, what is our relation to lists in general? And we found somehow out that Lists is something that says, you have to do that, or you have to follow this and this and this. But the problem is more that we don't look really to the list. We just feel, oh, there's a mechanic thing to go through, and I don't want to do that. It's a kind of obedience that we have to follow. Obedience. Obedience, which we somehow don't like. But as soon as we say, let's look to the first point, for instance, of the list, and really try to find out what does this mean and what connection does this have to my situation or my thinking or what else, then the whole list changes for everybody. Everybody thought the list has a sense or makes a sense. One person described it that lists then, with that point of view, helps her to, in difficult situations, to somehow use it as a checklist.

[20:00]

When she has the situation that she can't find the solution, she gets stuck. And then she can use the list and look to another point that might give her a different aspect. Which made it interesting because then we began to understand that this list is not a follow-up of point by point. It's more a claim to find out which point of view fits best for now. But every point has some kind of equal potential. And one person who was quite funny, I thought, because it's an everyday thing we do, is to use a table of content in a book. He discovered that, he said that he didn't read much until now, but somehow he thought, I have to start reading somehow. And then he opened a book and found a table of content. And somehow he felt that every point or every content that was in there

[21:06]

He had a relation to it. So he realized that he has some experience connected to that list. So this gave a different aspect to what the list can mean. It was more on the side of content, but he could also play which chapter is now more best fitting for me to work with. And I personally found, from the Thich Nhat Hanh text, the most fruitful thing was actually the picture with the wheel. Because I thought, that's a different kind of having access to a list, is to reimagine what or to look at a picture, when you have one, and to feel into that picture, for instance, the blind person in your heart. How does this feel? To be blind, and then also to realize that you are blind, and then the feeling, what does it change if you realize that you are blind, or can suddenly see what in the moment is happening?

[22:12]

Or also the monkey in the tree is looking for the fruit, In our group we also dealt with the access to lists and found out what lists actually are. all of us primarily do not like to have and then we asked ourselves what is the root of why we have problems with lists in general and came to the point that it is a difficulty that the list gives us something how we should proceed or what we should pursue now that the list is like a command or a process, a mechanical process that we want to replace ourselves with and do not want to be ignored.

[23:18]

We then also found that we can create another relationship if we say, okay, let's just look at the first point or one point of the list and imagine what is the solution or what is my reference to this point and that then, for most of us, a change arises where we can imagine something and then also consider the meaning of the list and that the relationship to the lists can practically change. One person described to me that in difficulties I can use such a list as a checklist, so that when a problem arises, I have the opportunity to look at other perspectives of the situation on the basis of the list, so that there is an impulse to look at something new from a different angle, so that it is easier to find out yourself what other perspectives there are. and one person also gave a nice, also funny example, who has said so far that she has not read much yet, and had the feeling to finally start reading with books, and then took a book, the one from Thich Nhat Hanh, and opened it, and then saw the content directory, and suddenly experienced, yes, that is also a list.

[24:45]

but he then realized that the chapters that were mentioned there were actually all topics with which he could start something, which covers an area of ​​experience, and thus also this form of the list was suddenly ready for use. also in the sense that the focus was more on the content, what the list contains, but also the possibility that you can take out certain points or chapters with which you can work depending on the situation. And I personally found this wheel with these pictures very interesting in the Thich Nhat Hanh text, because it represents another approach to wisdom, by looking at the pictures, for example, or imagining that a concept is placed in a picture and is emotionally placed in this situation and then tries to find out what happens when I imagine it correctly, for example, or blindness with the blind person, what does that mean, if I try to imagine correctly that I am blind, now I am blind, what does that mean, what happens when I know that, and what happens when I have the feeling that now I see, or also the idea

[26:04]

of the consciousness of the monkey that is hanging fruit on the tree and is looking for it, how do I imagine this and what kind of feeling arises in my body to do this in relation to the list. For me it is a very helpful way to give a list in a different way, Thank you. Agatha? Yes, go ahead. It was a Ditas group and we had the theme, how do I track to the list of the Eightfold Path? I never practiced with this list before and then I had tried really to force myself to read it and bear the list of views of the Eiffel path.

[27:24]

Yeah. It's a good place to read it. Why not? And I tried to practice it this morning and I was astonished what happened. Oh. I practiced with views and I knew views already because they sort of circled in myself from my history and my personality. Really, so I knew a lot about it already. I got to intentions and I forgot action, speech, but I forgot action. Conduct, yes, action. came to life and was happy to reach mindfulness.

[28:32]

Mindfulness, yes. Mindfulness, yes. It was clear to land there. With this mindfulness, only with this word, the whole thing changed. I felt my breath, my body, And just with this word, mindfulness, everything changed. I sensed my breath and my body suddenly then. And everything sort of slipped into the moment right now. Mm-hmm. And the views sort of got sort of creation, recreational, and I could imagine that with the new views that I wouldn't suffer anymore so much like before.

[29:36]

Yeah. That's good. That's great. It's interesting. We don't want to be caught in a world only described by language. But at the same time, it's amazing to me, it keeps being amazing, how words can trigger so much in us. By the way, I think it's probably more fun for the group if you speak in German and he translates. Then we have a long English and then a long German. But that's up to you, whatever you want to do. Yeah? Oh, Saskia was next. I saw it.

[30:40]

I will come back. Everyone now. I want everyone to participate, because otherwise it doesn't make sense. Go ahead. Yesterday I had the sort of the impulse to do what we talked about doing in a physical way. And I felt the necessity for me to do that. But I didn't know exactly how to do it. And in our talk, talking in our group, the question was for me, how to get what we talked about being transformed into immediate experience. And I went to bed and took this text of yours.

[31:42]

I never thought it would be the eightfold path to bed. And I read the first four pages. I went to sleep. And then in the morning in meditation, And you passed by. My left side was relaxing and the shoulder went right down. And the feeling of tension on the right side got thus more and more. And I didn't want to go at it in my usual manner, sort of go into it, feel it, and relax it. And then I made use of the eightfold path. When I just started to say these words of the InfoPass, I noticed that relaxation took place and it got more vivid, more alive.

[33:02]

And a balance was created. Krista just said the words, but then when I tried to say them with my breath, then the whole of the body relaxed. And interesting for me was when I said these single words to myself, that the process of letting go with the shoulder was accompanied by words which were fitting to the whole situation, what's coming up. Ah, yes. I'm glad I'm not the only one that doesn't understand.

[34:45]

Go ahead. The words picked up the thoughts that he was having. It was like picking them up, filling them into his mind. I understand that happened. Okay. And what I want to say is I want to thank you that you teach and how you teach. Oh, you're welcome. Yeah, thanks. How is it in Dutch and English and German? It feels like being in the soup you talked about yesterday. In the soup? The soup. Reading the text, Thich Nhat Hanh's text, for me the first time the word transformation kept jumping up.

[36:10]

Consciousness as a tool for transformation. And particularly with the much-loved list by most of us. Almost as a view, resistance comes up. But The resistance feels much lighter since I discovered it's a view.

[37:13]

And I can play with it and loosen it up and try to turn it into a tool in... Thank you. Okay. Yeah. I was... This word resistance lived in me yesterday. You know, wanted to add something. Maybe it's... It's similar to what you said. I thought we are not... I don't know how to say it in German.

[38:15]

Somehow we are not fair to the word resistance. It plays the role of an underdog. We don't give justice to the word resistance. We treat it like an underdog. And I noticed, whenever I didn't really... And I noticed that when I was not in good contact with the world and tried to get rid of the resistance, it was getting more difficult. always carries a treasure, in my experience, always carries a treasure in it. And sometimes I discovered that, she said you, but that the word resistance contained in itself something like a treasure.

[39:16]

So, if I don't consider it, then I create something subtle. I try to accept what I think is good, When I just accept what I find good or what I like, then I create a non-acceptance against resistance. And I would give a good example. When you look at something you don't like, it's... The list. The list. It's like you want to follow, you obey something.

[40:24]

It's a sort of abeyance. The treasure for me is like that when I find or discover that it is not this blindly following a concept, then it opens out and opens up. Yeah. I understand. Okay. Wir haben in unserer Gruppe In our group we looked at a short version of the list of Thich Nhat Hanh which also exists in the text. Well, craving, attaching and becoming is the point.

[41:37]

We raise it to a practical situation, like I see something and I can decide whether to buy it or not. The decision can be against buying something, but it can be in that way counterproductive, that see how good I am, that I will list that. So the question then is, how do I practice with the list so that the ego or the ego itself is built up by the tendency or gets its regular size and is not additionally inflated?

[42:48]

The question is, how do I practice with that list so that the ego or the self, the I, is sort of reduced or driven back to its appropriate size and not inflated or becoming larger? We had an example that two of us said, how do we deal with it when Bettler comes to us? And an example was that when a beggar approaches you, so there are different ways to give something, and one way is to give him money and then say, I'll look at how good I am. There are a lot of rules in Buddhism about not doing that, but yeah, go ahead.

[43:52]

We don't always follow them, but anyway. And another aspect was, how far can I, so to speak, say, I don't take that, how far can I go back, then at the end I can say, I need something to drink, I need something to eat to survive, and then I start from there and see what I really need. Another aspect was how far back can I go and saying I don't take this. Lastly it reduces itself to eating and drinking and starting anew from that point seeing what I really want or need. So there is a starting point of all the

[44:54]

Starting from a point with the utmost necessities of eating and drinking and then looking how a new balance is found from that point, starting from that point. These were two points you were talking about. Yeah, I used to practice with milkshakes. I like milkshakes. I used to like milkshakes. In fact, when I came back from Japan after four years in Japan, one of my closest friends met me at the ship in San Francisco with a milkshake. I couldn't believe it. He had his milkshake. When I reached the practice, I remember I decided not to have a milkshake.

[46:00]

Then I'd find myself in a store and I would decide not to buy a milkshake. And then suddenly I would find myself drinking one. And I would study all the stages. Yeah, okay. Who else, yeah? Yeah. I practiced this morning sitting. I practiced with acceptance. The attention at my breath. Just this. I was distracted as a helping center and I took just that. Just this.

[47:00]

It was like a cutting of an attachment and it functioned immediately. And I was surprised how well this functioned. I mean, I had been using the sentence just this before, but not in the way of sort of working off this list. It led to my being more attentive to ideas and thoughts, being more attentive and recognizing them, faster and more direct. And one sentence struck me with right effort being not overambitious and not slothful.

[48:39]

And it started as an entry into the Eightfold Path with something which is a theme for me at the moment, being not too eager or too busy and not too slothful either in my right effort. And because of this, we suddenly remember the right views, the right actions, the right thoughts. So through this entrance of effort, I suddenly find access, for example with a problem that I have at the moment, for these other aspects, where I always thought, for example, I don't know what the right views are, I don't know what the right action is now. So the right effort is somehow a good access. So I keep working on that. But through this right effort as an entry, I find access to, for example, right views, right mindfulness, which before I hadn't known how to get access to.

[50:15]

But this was an entry, this right effort. Yeah, good. This was also a problem one person brought up in power group, that when she heard the word light, there's some kind of connection to and maybe a concept of there's an objective measurement for light. and then they lose a bit the feeling of right, and they don't... she got a little bit unsure about what are the criteria for right. Is it my own good feeling? Is it that deceptive? And is there something else there which I can take as a measurement? And I think it has to do with the effects of the work that they draw the persons out of their own um maybe feeling of nourishment freedom or whatever's their emphasis in their practice and draw them to a new concept of a more objective world and of injecting brightness but you wrote about that in the article as well so that is what freedom yeah

[51:34]

May I add, in German, the word right is different from the English word. We never can say, I feel right with you. It would be funny in German, because right has always a connection to wrong, and the judge is the writer. Actually, is there something? Yeah, why not? It's happening in English, but that's all right. We have two words for right. Richtig und recht. And so this is hard to find the appropriate word in English. Richtig is right in a sense of correct. And also, like Lona said, it immediately gives a feeling of wrong. In English too. Recht is like, it's like, it would be, translated would be like a law or... Recht is used in the German Buddhist language for the right view or the right concentration, but not in the moral sense.

[52:51]

The idea was to say something out of moral context. I think in that sense it's used like just, to be just. Probably, yes. Like justice. Yes, but not so much in a worldly law, but more appropriate. For me it's not the word that's difficult, It's more the contents of the word appropriate.

[53:56]

I know what the word is, but the contents is what I would like to know. Of course, too. I just wanted to say that we had this yesterday as well. You already said it. What? We had the same discussion yesterday about the word right and what actually is it about the contents. if it is in a positive direction for me, in a positive direction, so to speak, in harmony.

[55:13]

If I now ask what is right, what is right, then I can only go where I have the feeling that it is going in the direction of harmony in me. Yeah, compass. From my inner compasses, what is right is when it's sort of fitting in myself, when there's in myself a feeling of agreement, sort of an agreement, and it fits. Yeah. With my senses. Yeah, yeah, I understand. Yeah? I like to use the term sometimes, fair, because that takes into context the relationship between me and whatever I'm dealing with, to use a fair action or a fair effort.

[56:23]

Could you use beneficial, too? Beneficial, yeah. The problem with fair and beneficial, which is good, is we want a neutral word, which is neither positive nor negative. Ideally. But it's hard to find one. It's better to have a positive word like beneficial or fair than a negative word. The problem with the words like fair or beneficial... Fair means just, appropriate and beneficial means... maybe it would work to use one of the terms that you use is that things approaches our future approaches us maybe appropriate uh... approaching right tending to right

[57:34]

This kind of exploration, not to just take the text and say, oh, this is the way it is, but this exploration to make the text our own is part of working with a text or a list. But in making a text our own, we don't want to lose this, well, In making a text our own, we're discovering what kind of people we are, together and individually. But I think we want to understand that in the context that we're this kind of person. But we don't want to decide, ah, that's the right way. It should have been that way from the past.

[58:41]

I think we have to recognize that people at different periods nowadays as well, I mean, in a sense, and in the past, are different kinds of human beings than we are. We or other people? We are different kind of human beings than say in the middle ages in Europe. And even nowadays, there's different kinds of people. In our period of time now. In our period of time now as well. Okay, so when I'm trying to present a... Teaching like the Eightfold Path.

[59:43]

I'm trying to imagine how it works for us. But I also don't want to imagine how it works for us unless I can imagine how it works for them. Not them. Those who wrote it or those who compacted it in the past. When I can understand how it worked for them, I can best understand how to transform that working as it did for them into how it works for us. And one of the main ways I think about things How did this work in an oral culture?

[60:57]

I don't remember the details, but you know that in the Middle Ages they didn't have indexes and tables of contents. I mean, even earlier than the invention of tables of contents, words were run together with no break. There were no paragraphs. So you had to read it aloud to find out where the word ended, because you couldn't read it visually.

[62:00]

You had to feel it aloud to know where the word began and ended. So I believe that First they began to divide the words, and then a hundred or so years later, and this is mostly Catholic monasticism, they invented the alphabetized index. So you couldn't find anything in a text. You had to read the whole text from beginning to end because you couldn't find anything.

[63:04]

You couldn't look up and say, oh, I'm interested in this point. Well, what was that? Where was that in the text? There was no way to do that. Now, we could say, jeez, those guys were stupid. It's so obvious to alphabetize a text. Alphabetize an index. Yeah, but... it's more fruitful to think this is a different kind of human being. It's a little bit if you're going to practice something, you dove into it and you swam through it to the end and it was all water that was coming in and when you got out, You'd swum the distance, but the water was still something like that, more some image like that.

[64:09]

So when people start saying, I want to read a text and be able to find content in it as I want, not as what the text shows me, but when I want the context. This is a process of individuation. then this is a process of individualization. We're beginning to be a different kind of person when we want command of the text instead of the text commanding us by making sense. So the way you've been speaking about your experience of these two texts, mine and Thich Nhat Hanh's,

[65:49]

There's been a mix in what you've said, a good mix, of noticing it both from a Theravadan or Tinayana or early Buddhist view and the Mahayana view. Okay. Now, again, it's not... They're not clearly different, but there's a significantly different emphasis. Okay. Now, in the early Buddhist, the kind of human being who created these early Buddhist versions... The early Buddhist who created these texts and practiced them. I would say... within five minutes, very briefly here, they were temporally framed people.

[67:15]

Temporally reframed? They were framed in time. They defined themselves in time. So they emphasized, for instance, I think it's Vasubandhu who has looks at these 12-fold links as three lifetimes of practice. So these teachings were seen as sequential teachings. One leading to the next. And... And in Mahayana Buddhism, they were seen as simultaneous.

[68:18]

Okay, so the Four Noble Truths are seen as simultaneously present, not sequentially present. Okay, so now what does the difference make? What does the difference make? Anyway, if you're practicing or if you're imagining the Four Noble Truths in a temporal framework, you notice your suffering. And, I mean, suffering is... You know, you talk to most people and they say, I don't suffer.

[69:23]

But sometimes a certain thing will happen and an immense sadness will come out that they don't usually have contact with. So, in the temporal way of looking at it, we suffer. Because of change, blah, blah, blah. And then... Through practice we see that the suffering has a cause. And through... period of practice, we free ourselves from causal karma, causes and then from karma. And then there's a cessation of suffering. So we become a person who is free of suffering.

[70:40]

That was kind of like the frame of thinking in early Buddhism. In Mahayana Buddhism, there's the feeling that there's suffering and cessation and causes all simultaneously happening. So when I say to you, pause for appearance, or pause for acceptance, Wenn ich zu euch sage, also haltet ein für das Akzeptieren, für das Annehmen. Oder gewöhnlicherweise sage ich ja, haltet ein für das Besondere, für das Einzige. Was ist das dann? That's the second noble truth.

[71:42]

That's cessation. Because in the midst of a spatially conceived simultaneity, and what does Yuan Wu say? Yuan Wu says, create a mind free of before and after. That's not a temporally framed person. And in a mind free of before and after, suffering is present and cessation is present. So when you pause for the particular, at that moment you're free of suffering. So you're not practicing to reach a stage where you're free of suffering. You're practicing to be in each moment In a way that something can decide to free yourself at that moment from resistance or suffering or whatever.

[73:13]

Then you have a new problem. Who decides? Well, then you have ideas like the mind of grasses and trees. What mind in each moment? frees you from suffering. Now, this isn't a better teaching. You know, maybe from our point of view it's a better... But it's just a different kind of human being practices this way. It wouldn't have worked for the early Buddhists. They couldn't have done it. A non-right view, contemporary view, is modern is best. This is not... Maybe sometimes, but not always.

[74:27]

So when you look at this practice of the twelve-fold links. And when you look at later versions of it, Thich Nhat Hanh looks at it both ways. He says each link, all twelve or each link, He says all twelve links are in each link. That's the Mahayana non-sequential view. But primarily he's presenting a more early Buddhist view.

[75:29]

He's emphasizing the sequentiality. Now, when you practice it from the point of view of simultaneity, probably you drop the last three. of the twelvefold links and you only have eight links. The last four I guess. The last four which link it to reincarnation. So we're a different kind of person. Mahayana people are a different kind of people. So they have changed what teachings they emphasize. And even those teachings get changed into new teachings, which are really parts of the 12-fold link changed into other lists.

[76:33]

They took teachings from the early Buddhist time and said, we don't need this part. And we can take these parts and make them into new things. And I ask someone to volunteer to show how the five dharmas relate to the 12-fold links. So far, maybe tomorrow, one of you could do it. But then there's problems. The Mahayanas liked the number 10. And they liked even numbers, not odd numbers. So you don't have any lists of seven, usually.

[77:41]

You have lists of even numbers, or if possible, ten. And sometimes it's really a list of nine, and they've added one. You know, you have to notice this. These are just... Yeah, these are just human beings. So you can't practice with these things. You can't? Yeah, just say that, please. Unless you make it your own. So it means you've got to discover the list or what lists you already have in yourself. And then expand those lists. in yourself and expand them with the influence of the teaching or add some of the teaching and begin to find a list drawn from the wisdom of the overall practice and your own experience.

[78:54]

I mean when I So you may have a teaching where you really emphasize three or four aspects of it and not others, and the others are sort of dormant. And then later you eliminate them or later they come alive. Maybe that's what winter branches is. Maybe spring is coming. Yes. I want to ask, is this idea, this word, the word individuation, is this already in Buddhism implicit?

[80:02]

Or is it something new? Well, I'm using a word that we understand. Yes. And yes, you can understand the process of Mahayana practice as a process toward individuation. And dramatically so. Because it's not about the Buddha in the past, it's about the Buddha that's present in our situation and in you. So really this shift to a spatially conceived sentience, is a shift to sudden teaching.

[81:10]

So cessation isn't earned over... time, cessation is present right now. That's the view of sudden teaching. But then sudden teaching as a practice gets politicized within later Mahayana schools, and then you have that problem. Oh dear, I tried not to go over 11. And Saskia hasn't said anything and you were going to say something?

[82:11]

You want to wait till tomorrow? Shall we wait till tomorrow? Yes. Saskia wants to wait till tomorrow, but you may not want to wait till tomorrow. Well, you can say something. Say something. Why not? And something so much has been said... It's probably a problem with getting older but so much has been said already here and so I finally decided to read more, get more into the text and to get this intensified. Sometimes I have the feeling that it's boring.

[83:15]

Actually, everything has already been there and everything always appears again, even with me. I just lack the strength to really do something. So much has been said already, so much comes up again and again, but I lack the strength or the power to get a breakthrough. I know. Good. Well, what a wonderful discussion, and it's going to be, I hope, more wonderful tomorrow.

[83:59]

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