Is there anything you'd like to speak about? Yes. The question is, how do we stay with the intention? The day before yesterday I made a note about the question, how do we stay with intention? We don't sort of make it. But hold it before us, for example, like the practice of the five skandhas. What does it mean by not making it? Does it exclude intervention by the mind? I can't really say what it is. What does it mean by not making it?

[01:03]

I don't quite understand. not making the intention, but to keep it before me, like the practice of the five skandhas. That was my making. My experience is that I have always to remember the intention and to take some effort. My question is, making an effort, is this contradictory? Yes. Well, a version of this question came up the other day or I mentioned yesterday morning, I guess it was.

[02:25]

I often say that all mental phenomena have a physical component. And all sentient physical phenomena have a mental component. Basic truism of Yogacara teaching. And that assumption is part of our weaving body and mind together. And we don't have only one mind and one body. or one way of weaving mind and body together.

[03:30]

If you choose to practice Zen, Yeah, you're actually choosing a particular way to weave mind and body together. There may be other ways. Assume there's other ways. If you're a healer and you work with your hands and the heat in your hands and things like that, Your practice will weave mind and body together in a somewhat different way than just an ordinary Zen practicer. When we do the Oryokis, the Oryokis and the way we use them, and I've pointed out many times in relationship to the chakras, when you externalize an activity in relationship to the body, and in particular the chakras, you're weaving mind and body together.

[04:41]

Is there anything you'd like to speak about? The day before yesterday, I made a note about the question, how do we stay with intention? so we don't sort of make it, but hold it before us, for example, like the practice of the five skandhas. What does it mean by not making it?

[05:51]

Does it exclude intervention by the mind? I can't really say what it is. What does it mean by not making it? I don't quite understand. not making the intention, but to keep it before me, like the practice of the five skandhas. That was my making. My experience is that I have always to remember the intention and to take some effort. My question is, making an effort, is this contradictory?

[06:53]

Yes. Well, a version of this question came up the other day or I mentioned yesterday morning, I guess it was. I often say that all mental phenomena have a physical component. And all sentient physical phenomena have a mental component. basic truism of Yogacara teaching and that assumption is part of our weaving body and mind together and we don't have only one mind and one body

[08:04]

or one way of weaving mind and body together. If you choose to practice Zen, Yeah, you're actually choosing a particular way to weave mind and body together. There may be other ways. Let's assume there's other ways. If you're a healer and you work with your hands and the heat in your hands and things like that, Your practice will weave mind and body together in a somewhat different way than just an ordinary Zen practitioner. When we do the Oyokis, the Oyokis and the way we use them, and I've pointed out many times in relationship to the chakras, when you externalize an activity in relationship to the body, and in particular the chakras, you're weaving mind and body together.

[09:41]

And when we do it with each other, we're then weaving our minds and bodies together with each other. It's like a whole bunch of looms here. And doing the Uriyoki together is like a shared shuttle. Now, the military knows this. That's how they get people willing to be killed. You train people to do things together in a certain way and then you're advancing toward a bunch of guns and you continue to advance, you know.

[10:57]

So this is a very powerful tool. of organizing society, armies, and so forth. Yeah, but we shouldn't let the military alone have this tool. But this also relates to what I've said to you the other day. I mean, I'm going a little bit around here from what you said. I also mentioned this research I've only read about in the last year or so, and I sort of mentioned it the other day, mirroring neurons. So if I see you kick a football, a soccer ball,

[12:10]

If somebody has me wired up, my brain lights up just like I was kicking the football. I've often been amused when, you know, if I have a dream in which I stumble or fall, in the dream my body goes... I haven't really fallen, but my brain thinks I've fallen. And if I just hear the word kick, my brain will light up as if I were going to kick. And it seems from what I've read that no other animal, no bonobo or No chimpanzee, no other animal has this ability, complex mirroring neurons like we do.

[13:49]

It's one of the biggest differences between us and our cousins. Our less hairy cousins. We actually have more hair, more hair follicles, but they have They're hairier, it looks like, but we actually have more hair. That's just a curiosity. Okay. So it seems like this is one of the bases of civilization, culture, society, sports, learning things together is dependent on this skill, on these mirroring neurons. And when we do it with each other,

[14:50]

we're then weaving our minds and bodies together with each other. It's like a whole bunch of looms here. And doing the Oyoki together is like a shared shuttle. Now, the military knows this. That's how they get people willing to be killed. You train people to do things together in a certain way and then you're advancing toward a bunch of guns and you continue to advance you know so this is a very powerful tool of organizing society, armies, and so forth.

[16:19]

Yeah, but we shouldn't let the military alone have this tool. But this also relates to what I've said to you the other day. I mean, I'm going a little bit around here from what you said. I also mentioned this research I've only read about in the last year or so, and I sort of mentioned it the other day, mirroring neurons. So if I see you kick a football, a soccer ball, If somebody has me wired up, my brain lights up just like I was kicking the football.

[17:37]

I've often been amused when, you know, if I have a dream in which I stumble or fall, in the dream my body goes... I haven't really fallen, but my brain thinks I've fallen. And if I just hear the word kick, my brain will light up as if I were going to kick. And it seems from what I've read that no other animal, no bonobo or No chimpanzee, no other animal has this ability, complex mirroring neurons like we do.

[18:49]

It's one of the biggest differences between us and our cousins. Our less hairy cousins. We actually have more hair, more hair follicles, but they have They're hairier, it looks like, but we actually have more hair. That's just a curiosity. Okay. So it seems like this is one of the bases of civilization, culture, society, sports, learning things together, is dependent on this skill, on these mirroring neurons. Right. Hi.

[20:09]

Did she get off okay? Yes. Was it a great big truck? Yes. Okay. Rosemary... It's a friend of mine's daughter who's moving now all her animals from Gaspar. Some of you have been to Gaspar? She's moving them. Gaspar. Gaspar, yeah. She's moving them all. Horses, donkeys, goats. Where? To Salem. Not to here. To your castle? No, but next door. Okay. So you saw the animals off. The kids must have loved it. Yeah, okay. So I want to extend this into a kind of talking about...

[21:18]

parallel knowing. But anyway, what I'm speaking about now is if all mental phenomena have a physical component and all sentient physical phenomena have a mental component, Someone asked me, so you're sitting Zazen in your uncorrected mind and you're drifting through various states of mind. And you hit upon a particularly nice one. Now, is to come back to that particularly nice one a contradiction of Sukhiroshi's teaching of no gaining ideas?

[22:21]

Yeah, well, that's taking no gaining ideas too seriously. A want isn't a gaining idea. A want. I want to drink water. This isn't a gaining idea. I want to know this state of mind. If you start, I want to know the state of mind because it's going to lead to enlightenment, now you're sort of having a problem. And that gaining idea can be a problem. Not necessarily, but can be. Okay. Okay, so to want to come back to that state of mind, yeah, this is the way we explore ourselves.

[23:39]

And the Yogacara method, which is particularly Yogacara, and the Yogacara method, particularly Yogacara, is to remember the state of mind physically because a state of mind has a physical component. So you develop a kind of physical keyboard on which you can play states of mind. That's sort of true. Okay. So, let's come back to what you said. Hi.

[24:57]

Did she get off okay? Yes. Was it a great big truck? Yes. Okay. Rosemary... It's a friend of mine's daughter who's moving now all her animals from Gaspar. Some of you have been to Gaspar? She's moving them. Gaspar. Gaspar, yeah. She's moving them all. Horses, donkeys, goats. Where? To Salem. Not to here. To your castle? No, next door. Okay. So you saw the animals off.

[25:59]

Yeah, you uploaded it. The kids must have loved it. Yeah, okay. Mm. So I want to extend this into a kind of talking about parallel knowing. But anyway, what I'm speaking about now is if all mental phenomena have a physical component and all sentient physical phenomena have a mental component, Someone asked me, so you're sitting Zazen in your uncorrected mind and you're drifting through various states of mind. And you hit upon a particularly nice one.

[27:00]

Now, is to come back to that particularly nice one a contradiction of Sukhiroshi's teaching of no gaining ideas? Yeah, well, that's taking no gaining ideas too seriously. A want isn't a gaining idea. A what? A want. I want to drink water. This isn't a gaining idea. I want to know this state of mind. I want to know this state of mind because it's going to lead to enlightenment Now you're sort of having a problem. And that gaining idea can be a problem.

[28:14]

Not necessarily, but can be. Okay. Okay, so to want to come back to that state of mind, yeah, this is the way we explore ourselves. And the Yogacara method, which is particularly Yogacara, And the Yogacara method, particularly Yogacara, is to remember the state of mind physically. Because a state of mind has a physical component.

[29:17]

So you develop a kind of physical keyboard on which you can play states of mind. That's sort of true. Okay. So, let's come back to what you said. After you finish your notes. So, what did you say again? What was your question? It is... You said, as I remember, you said, don't make intention, but keep them before you as a practice of the five... If I said don't make, I didn't quite mean that.

[30:24]

I don't know... Or I said it was in a particular context. What you want to do is you want to discover Or you want to make an intention. But you have to make an intention that works. Because an intention functions underneath consciousness. You can create it in consciousness. But then it has to function underneath consciousness or in the midst of consciousness. So Dogen says something like there's several states of mind and

[31:27]

One of the latter ones is the mind of grasses and trees, which is what we're talking about partly. And he says the first state of mind is discriminating mind. And he basically says discriminating mind is useless. Basically he says, I'm exaggerating, discriminating mind is useless. Except for deciding to practice. Except for the decision to practice. What he means is that the intention is formed, but it is not maintained. This discriminating mind is used to further develop the intention. So how thinking and intelligence is imagined in a yogic culture is discriminating mind sorts things, but putting them together isn't through discrimination primarily.

[32:55]

And my usual examples are like a pure mathematician who has to work, solve a problem that hasn't been solved. He can't think his way to it. He has to let something function underneath all the information about it. Now, I would say that our way of thinking and our schooling emphasizes discriminating mind. But still this, let's call it, non-conscious knowing and thinking Non-thinking, Dogen calls it. Think non-thinking. It's also part of our thinking.

[34:21]

We just emphasize or notice the discriminating part more. And then yoga cultures, they emphasize the non-discriminating part more. But we both do both parts. And if you're planning... I used to be a conference planner for the University of California. If I'm planning a conference, I do a lot of discriminating thinking. After you finish your notes. So what did you say again? What was your question? It is... It is, you said, as I remember you said, don't make intention but keep them before you as a practice of the five. If I said don't make, I didn't quite mean that.

[35:24]

I don't know. Or I said it was in a particular context. What you want to do is you want to discover an intention. Or you want to make an intention. But you have to make an intention that works. Because an intention functions underneath consciousness. You can create it in consciousness. But then it has to function underneath consciousness or in the midst of consciousness. So Dogen says something like there's several states of mind and

[36:28]

One of the latter ones is the mind of grasses and trees, which is what we're talking about partly. And he says the first state of mind is discriminating mind. And he basically says discriminating mind is useless. Basically he says, I'm exaggerating, discriminating mind is useless. Except for deciding to practice. Except for the decision to practice. What he means is that the intention is formed, but it is not maintained. This discriminating mind is used to further develop the intention. So how thinking and intelligence is imagined in a yogic culture is discriminating mind sorts things, but putting them together isn't through discrimination primarily.

[38:01]

And my usual examples are like a pure mathematician who has to work, solve a problem that hasn't been solved. He can't think his way to it. He has to let something function underneath all the information about it. Now, I would say that our way of thinking and our schooling emphasizes discriminating mind. But still this, let's call it, non-conscious knowing and thinking Non-thinking, Dogen calls it. Think non-thinking. Mm-hmm. It's also part of our thinking.

[39:21]

We just emphasize or notice the discriminating part more. And then yoga cultures, they emphasize the non-discriminating part more. But we both do both parts. If I used to be a conference planner for the University of California, if I'm planning a conference, I do a lot of discriminating thinking. If I'm in graduate school and I'm trying to solve some kind of problem, I'm writing a poem, I do more non-discriminating thinking. Or something like that. So in other words, you can't An associate of mine just brought some lobsters into my head.

[40:32]

I grew up in Maine and we used lobsters, were kind of a great thing. So one time with Virginia, my first wife, we decided, well, we were vegetarians, but we'd have a lobster. And we bought a couple lobsters and then these boar stings. So we took them down to the San Francisco Bay and put them in the water. My intention might have been good, but the lobsters probably died. We have to create an intention that swims. And some intentions don't swim in the mind. So you have to find an intention, but you kind of have to discover an intention as well as you make an intention.

[41:47]

So if we have, this is part of the What's hidden in this simple list initial application. Sustained application. So now we're talking about the craft of initial application and sustained application. Then in addition, the next one is interest or engagement. Or caring. And the next is bliss or satisfaction. Okay. Now, so... assuming you've developed an intention, now you have to nourish that intention by caring, by interest.

[43:08]

And you may be, it may be, I don't know, just a little footnote, The word interest means interbeing. Est is is or being and inter is interbeing. Okay. So this is why for some intentions you have to have a very big sense of caring. And that's the Bodhisattva vow. So in this third category comes the degree of caring which supports the sustained intention. And it's understood in Buddhism that what Buddhism means by enlightenment is much

[44:11]

not the individual enlightenment experience someone might have. The full sense of enlightenment can't be done for yourself alone. You really have to feel your intention benefit you. If I'm in a graduate school and I'm trying to solve some kind of problem or I'm writing a poem, I do more non-discriminating thinking. Or something like that. So in other words, you can't Oh, an associate of mine just brought some lobsters into my head. Because once, I always, you know, I grew up in Maine and we used, lobsters were kind of a great thing.

[45:50]

So one time with Virginia, my first wife, we decided, well, we were vegetarians, but we'd have a lobster. And we bought a couple lobsters and then these poor things, you know. So we took them down to the San Francisco Bay and put them in the water. My intention might have been good, but the lobsters probably died. We have to create an intention that swims. And some intentions don't swim in the mind. So you have to find an intention, but you kind of have to discover an intention as well as you make an intention. So if we have, this is part of the What's hidden in this simple list initial application.

[47:06]

Sustained application. So now we're talking about the craft of initial application and sustained application. Then in addition, the next one is interest or engagement. Or caring. And the next is bliss or satisfaction. Okay. Now, so... assuming you've developed an intention, now you have to nourish that intention by caring, by interest.

[48:08]

And you may be, it may be, I don't know, just a little footnote, The word interest means interbeing. Est is is or being and inter is interbeing. Okay. So this is why for some intentions you have to have a very big sense of caring. And that's the Bodhisattva vow. So in this third category comes the degree of caring which supports the sustained intention. And it's understood in Buddhism that what Buddhism means by enlightenment much

[49:11]

not the individual enlightenment experience someone might have. The full sense of enlightenment can't be done for yourself alone. You really have to feel your intention benefit. What did I say? Für dich alleine, ja. Aber auch durch dich. Okay. Can't be done for yourself alone. Because you don't care, that's not deep enough caring. You have to develop the intention that this will benefit all beings, all sentient beings.

[50:41]

That's the idea. And the first expression of that in most of us, well, Dogen calls the decision to take the precepts the initial enlightenment. And when we take the precepts, there's a feeling of this is the way a human being should live. It's not just how I should live, but how we should live. I would say when we take the precepts That's more implicit than really explicit for many of us.

[51:44]

But at the point at which you're practicing, you're going along for a year or two or something like that, and suddenly it becomes more important to you to help others practice than worrying about your own practice. And that's more explicit. We notice that suddenly we You know, I'm practicing because I want to help others practice. That's the first explicit stage of the Bodhisattva vow developing in us. Okay. And we go to the Zendo.

[53:04]

Yeah, today I don't feel like going to the Zendo. But it makes a difference whether I go to the Zendo for others. Yeah. The center over there has a nicer zendo, but this place I know the people I'm practicing, so I go to the zendo. Yeah. So that's a rather long answer to what you asked, but response, anyway. Who else? Yes? We discussed also two days ago in our group the phrase, don't sacrifice your state of mind. And you mentioned in your lecture that you also don't sacrifice the state of mind of others.

[54:05]

And we weren't quite clear what you meant by this or how to approach it. the relation between. When I listen to the beginning of this talking, I can imagine something in the realm of the mirroring. So my question is, how did you mean that? Two days ago, in our group, we looked at this phrase, this sentence again, sacrifice your mental state not and Roshi also added in his lecture, sacrifice also the mental state of the other not. By yourself. What did I say? By yourself. Can't be done for yourself alone, because that's not deep enough caring.

[55:07]

You have to develop the intention that this will benefit all beings, all sentient beings. That's the idea. And the first expression of that in most of us, well, Dogen calls the decision to take the precepts the initial enlightenment. And when we take the precepts, there's a feeling of this is the way a human being should live. It's not just how I should live, but how we should live. Now, I would say when we take the precepts, that's more implicit than really explicit for many of us.

[56:50]

But at the point at which you're practicing, you're going along for a year or two or something like that, and suddenly you... becomes more important to you to help others practice than worrying about your own practice. And that's more explicit. We notice that suddenly we... You know, I'm practicing because I want to help others practice. That's the first explicit stage of the Bodhisattva vow developing in us. Okay. And we go to the Zendo.

[58:04]

Yeah, today I don't feel like going to Zendo. But it makes a difference whether I go to the Zendo for others. Yeah. The center over there has a nicer zendo, but this place I know the people I'm practicing, so I go to the zendo. Yeah. So that's a rather long answer to what you asked, but response, anyway. Who else? Yes? We discussed also two days ago in our group the phrase, don't sacrifice your state of mind, and you mentioned in your lecture that you also don't sacrifice the state of mind of others.

[59:05]

And we weren't quite clear what you meant by this, or how to approach the relation between When I listen to the beginning of this talking, I can imagine something in the realm of the mirroring. So my question is, how did you need that? Two days ago in our group, we looked at this phrase, this sentence again. Don't sacrifice your mental state. And Roshi said it in his... with a lecture also added whether also the state of mind of the other is not. And we were not quite clear what was meant by it or how one could approach it, what my father speaks of, and today I have the beginning of this yesterday I mean this is what in one way what you're asking is quite simple another way it's not simple at all so I'll just

[60:17]

respond mostly by what we do the next days. Okay. But I'll say that yesterday we took the kids, we had to do some errands, so we took Sophia and Rebecca to Waldshut, Forest Hat. Waldshut. Forest Hat. Thank you. What did you say? Hot and what? Anyway, so we decided, I hope it's all right, that we gave Rebecca some ice cream.

[61:47]

It was her birthday coming up, so we gave her a little present. We had a little table and a little birthday party. We gave Rebecca a little ice cream because it was her birthday and we made her a little birthday table and so on. And they brought us some water, and one of the waters we didn't want, so we asked the woman, the waitress, to take it back. And she said, I can't take it back, it's already open. We said, we didn't open it, you brought it to the table open. So she got in a bad state of mind and she sacrificed our state of mind. So we were sitting there thinking, you know, we've got that woman upset, etc. But she's a professional waitress, and when she came back, she was quite cheery.

[62:55]

We gave her a big tip, and then we improved her state of mind. That's enough for now. Someone else? It's just a remark, but this mirroring of neurons is really, I think, my main professional tool at the moment, which I quite consciously use. It means just patients reporting something, just letting myself sort of think back and just feel what they say. And so responding to that more, not listening to, but more actually... some time already to what's coming up in me. So this is normal in a way for doctors. Very helpful. It's the bedside manner or something like that. In America we call the doctor's rapport the bedside manner.

[63:58]

All the... teachers from Asia, at least back in the 60s and 70s, couldn't believe the flora and fauna that Western students produce in Doksan. We weren't quite sure what was meant by it or how to approach it, what kind of field it refers to. And today, with the beginning of this conversation, I have a suspicion or a question whether it has something to do with this mirroring, i.e.

[65:16]

with this mirroring, as an example, with a football player, or how I could approach it. Yesterday, I mean, this is what, in one way, what you're asking is quite simple. Another way, it's not simple at all. So I'll just respond mostly by what we do the next days. Okay. But I'll say that yesterday we took the kids, we had to do some errands, so we took Sophia and Rebecca to Waldshut, Forest Hat. Waldshut. Forest Hat. Waldshut, yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

[66:30]

What did you say? Hot in the world. Anyway, so we decided, I hope it's all right, that we gave Rebecca some ice cream. It was her birthday coming up, so we gave her a little birthday present. We had a little table and a little birthday party. And they brought us some water, and one of the waters we didn't want, so we asked the woman, the waitress, to take it back. And she said, I can't take it back. It's already open. We said, we didn't open it, you brought it to the table open. So she got in a bad state of mind and she sacrificed our state of mind. So we were sitting there thinking, now we've got that woman upset, etc.

[67:31]

But she's a professional waitress, and when she came back, she was quite cheery. We gave her a big tip, and then we improved her state of mind. That's enough for now. Someone else... It's just a remark, but this mirroring of neurons is really, I think, my main professional tool at the moment, which I quite consciously use. This is me and just patients reporting something and just letting myself sort of think back and just feel what they say. And so responding to that more, not listening to, but more actually... some time already to what's coming up in me. So this is normal in a way for doctors. Very helpful. It's the bedside manner or something like that.

[68:53]

In America we call the doctor's rapport the bedside manner. All the... All the... teachers from Asia, at least back in the 60s and 70s, couldn't believe the flora and fauna that Western students produce in Doksan. And I've had quite a number of students who are Japanese or Chinese born.

[70:01]

And they just do not have these concerns. What they talk about usually is images. They see everything in metaphorical images. And their concern is their views or their willpower. Did they have enough will in this situation or something like that? So that was to preface. Sometimes people would come in to see Sukhriyashi. And they'd have a completely complicated stuff, right? That I would often know quite a bit about. from which I often knew and knew a lot.

[71:32]

And Sukiroshi asked me, though he had read Freud and so forth, but he asked me to educate him about psychology. And Sukiroshi, he had read Freud, but he asked me to give him a little advice about psychology. So I asked Michael Murphy, my friend, who is the founder of Esalen, To put together a program on psychology for Suzuki Roshi at Esalen, which I could bring him to. So we got the president of the American Psychiatric Association to meet at Esalen with Suzuki Roshi. Unfortunately, this is a very nice guy and he's well informed, but he had no... no real feel for psychology, I would say.

[72:39]

But anyway, we spent a week there and discussed psychology, and Sukershi was, I think, helpful to him. This is just an anecdote, by the way. Anyway, so people would come in and he would sit and listen with this kind of big, wide feeling. He would seldom say anything. And people would come out, and I'd arrange for them to go and to see him. People would come out and they'd say, he understood everything. And he's completely resolved. He showed me the resolution.

[73:39]

So I'd go in afterwards and he'd say, what's going on with this person? And I'd go in and he'd say, what's going on with this person? So I would explain to him what I thought was going on. And he'd say, oh. But I couldn't do what he did. I was not able to give people this feeling that he could give, even though I understood their American way of, you know... But, you know, good to have both. And Sukersi developed a much better understanding coming to the west of psychology.

[74:51]

Yeah, this happened and I thought this... No, no, no... Whoa! And I've had quite a number of students who are Japanese or Chinese born. And they just do not have these concerns. What they talk about usually is images. They see everything in metaphorical images. And their concern is their views or their willpower. Did they have enough will in this situation or something like that?

[75:55]

So that was to preface, sometimes people would come in to see Sukhriyashi. And that was the foreword. Some people would come to see such a situation. And they'd have a completely complicated... stuff, right? That I would often know quite a bit about. And Sukirishi asked me, though he had read Freud and so forth, but he asked me to educate him about psychology. So I asked, Michael Murphy, my friend, founder of Esalen. To put together a program on psychology for Suzuki Roshi at Esalen, which I could bring him to.

[76:59]

So we got the president of the American Psychiatric Association to meet at Esalen with Suzuki Roshi. Unfortunately, this is a very nice guy, and he's well informed, but he had no... no real feel for psychology, I would say. But anyway, we spent a week there and discussed psychology, and Sukershi was, I think, helpful to him. This is just an anecdote, by the way. Anyway, people would come in and he would sit and listen with this kind of big, wide feeling. He would seldom say anything. And people would come out, and I'd arrange for them to go and see him.

[78:29]

People would come out and they'd say, he understood everything. And he's completely resolved, he showed me the resolution. So I'd go in afterwards and he'd say, what's going on with this person? And I'd go in afterwards and he'd say, what's going on with this person? So I would explain to him what I thought was going on. But I couldn't do what he did. I was not able to give people this feeling that he could give, even though I understood their American way of, you know, you know, etc. But, you know, good to have both. And Sukershi developed a much better understanding coming to the west of psychology.

[79:51]

Okay, someone else. Yes. I want to talk about Tuesday's show, about the impermanence. Impermanence. It was really impressing to me to see that there is a huge difference to read about this or to hear this so clearly and basically from you. And I want to talk about my sitting after this.

[80:52]

And when something like the background mind came into So I have this wide mirror feeling. I feel that this has nothing to do with me. It's not connected with me. It's connected with everything. It's always there, something like this. And then I fell out and I thought, do I again try to grasp something to make something permanent? And then I tried to go back to this impermanence and then I really got fear.

[81:58]

I really had the feeling, oh, I lose everything. There's really deep water and a big threshold. So I was a coward and I tried to escape, just go away. And then I remembered the heart sutra and thought, okay, there is hindrance in my mind. And then something popped up like the fact that I'm able to change my worldview and to change it from

[83:24]

regarding things as entities to activities which changes then everything. This already shows that it cannot be so permanent. And this didn't feel so dangerous anymore. And so I was sitting with this and then something came up, just a glimpse, a taste of that it's not a contradiction to sit as a rock and this permanent changing.

[84:27]

So it was like a feeling like the mountain starts to stream or something like this. My question is, how can I go... Okay, someone else. Yes. I want to talk about Tuesday's show, about impermanence. I want to talk about Tuesday's show, about impermanence. It was really impressive to me to see that there is a huge difference to read about this or to hear this so clearly and basically from you.

[85:40]

And I want to talk about my sitting after this. When something like the background mind came into the foreground, so I have this wide mirror feeling. I feel that this has nothing to do with me. It's not connected with me. It's connected with everything. It's always there, something like this. And then I fell out and I thought, do I again try to grasp something to make something permanent? And then I tried to go back to this impermanence and then I really got fear.

[86:58]

I really had the feeling, oh, I lose everything. There's really deep water and a big threshold. So I was a coward and I tried to escape, just go away. Thank you. And then I remembered the heart sutra and thought, okay, there is hindrance in my mind. And then something popped up like the fact that I'm able to change my worldview and to change it from

[88:25]

regarding things as entities to activities which changes then everything. This already shows that it cannot be so permanent. And then something appears, the realization that the fact that I can even remember my worldview from an ontological perspective, from a phenomenological perspective, And this didn't feel so dangerous anymore. And so I was sitting with this and then something came up, just a glimpse, a taste of that it's not a contradiction to sit as a rock at this permanent changing, so it was like feeling like the mountain starts to stream or something like this

[89:34]

My question is, how can I go... deeper into this impermanence because is it just that I try to recondition or re-educate my mind just by telling me this all the time or I think I have to experience it otherwise it's just a belief. But how can I do this? Well, swim. It's deep water, but you learn to swim.

[90:47]

And the fear is a problem, but it's also good. Because the fear makes us really notice that we're changing our worldview, or changing our view. You know, and let's say there's a feeling, let's say background mind, has a feeling of being always there. But you're right. To say it's always there is a grasping at permanence. It's like a feeling of oneness.

[91:49]

A lot of people make, lots of people, make what we call misplaced concreteness. A philosophical term. How to translate that? Misplaced concreteness. Misplaced concreteness, yeah. And they have a feeling of oneness and they decide, they forget that it's a feeling of oneness and they say, ah, now I know the world is one or... And one of the problems with evangelicals fundamentalist Christians in America anyway.

[92:57]

Is they have an experience of oneness or of unity with God or something like that? And then they believe that is the way the world is because they experience that way and they think the experience is real and they don't say it's just a feeling. So the American president, George Shrubb, I mean Bush. A shrub of a tiny bush. George Shrub. He had a Protestant conversion experience. And it's phenomenologically very similar to Buddhist enlightenment experiences.

[94:02]

So in Buddhism we consider enlightenment experiences dangerous if they fix on particular teaching or fix on a particular... So he can tell the whole world that God told him to go into Iraq. He did. He says that. And the whole nation of the United States with its congressmen and senators believe it. deeper into this impermanence because is it just that I try to recondition or re-educate my mind by telling me this all the time or I think I have to experience it otherwise it's just a belief.

[95:19]

But how can I do this? Well, swim. It's deep water, but you learn to swim. And the fear is a problem, but it's also good. Because the fear makes us really notice that we're changing our worldview, or changing our view. You know, and let's say there's a feeling, let's say background mind, has a feeling of being always there. But you're right that to say it's always there is a grasping at permanence.

[96:30]

It's like a feeling of oneness. A lot of people make lots of people make what we call misplaced concreteness. A philosophical term. How to translate that? Misplaced concreteness. Misplaced concreteness, yeah. And they have a feeling of oneness and they decide, they forget that it's a feeling of oneness and they say, ah, now I know the world is one or... And one of the problems with evangelicals fundamentalist Christians in America anyway.

[97:58]

Is they have an experience of oneness or of unity with God or something like that? And then they believe that is the way the world is because they experience that way and they think the experience is real and they don't say it's just a feeling. So the American president, George Shrub, I mean Bush. A shrub of a tiny bush. George Shrub. He had a Protestant conversion experience. And it's phenomenologically very similar to Buddhist enlightenment experiences.

[99:03]

So in Buddhism we consider enlightenment experiences dangerous if they fix on a particular teaching or fix on a particular... So he can tell the whole world that God told him to go into Iraq. He did. He says that. And the whole nation of the United States with its congressmen and senators Believe it or go along with it. We're living in a madhouse. It's an insane asylum.

[100:04]

Yeah. So there's other reasons why, but this was a big part of it. Yeah. Excuse me, I'd really... outraged by our current political situation. Okay. So, the word Dharma means to hold. And it's an Indo-European cognate of firmness. And it firm means something you can take hold of. So something that's always there. So Dharma means what's there, what holds, and that's the teaching in the midst of the basic teaching that everything's changing.

[101:20]

Yeah, so we're always working with a contrast between what seems to hold, what seems to have duration, and what changes. So you said that It feels like the mountain is flowing. You sit like a mountain or sit like a rock, but it feels like the rock is streaming. And Dogen has a fascicle which has the idea that do you see, do you know the walking of the blue mountains? So our practice is maybe first of all, the mind is changeable, the body can become still.

[102:36]

And we learn to find a stillness in the body. And then we can start observing the mind. If everything's moving at once, you can't observe anything. So through the stillness of the body, we can start to observe the mind. And then the stillness of the body slows the mind down. And then you find subtle states of mind, like background mind, or as I said to somebody recently, inclusive instead of exclusive samadhi. Okay.

[103:50]

So you begin to know various kinds of samadhi or background mind or infinity of space, etc. Yeah. How can you have an etc. bigger than infinity? But anyway... Infinity, etc. You don't have to translate that. And each one has a feeling of being always there. And as you know, the word atom in English probably means cannot break. What cannot be broken is what atom means. But we've discovered it can.

[104:52]

Or go along with it. We're living in a madhouse. It's an insane asylum. Yeah. So there's other reasons why, but this was a big part of it. Excuse me, I'm really outraged by our current political situation. Okay. So, the word dharma means to hold. And it's an Indo-European cognate of firmness. And firm means something you can take hold of.

[105:54]

So something that's always there. So dharma means what's there or what holds and that's the teaching in the midst of the basic teaching that everything's changing. Yeah, so we're always working with a contrast between what seems to hold, what seems to have duration, and what changes. So you said that It feels like the mountain is flowing.

[107:02]

You sit like a mountain or sit like a rock, but it feels like the rock is streaming. And Dogen has a fascicle which has the idea that do you see, do you know the walking of the blue mountains? So our practice is maybe first of all, the mind is changeable, the body can become still. And we learn to find a stillness in the body. And then we can start observing the mind. If everything is moving at once, you can't observe anything. So through the stillness of the body we can start to observe the mind.

[108:04]

And then the stillness of the body slows the mind down. And then you find subtle states of mind like background mind or as I said to somebody recently, inclusive instead of exclusive samadhi. Okay. So you begin to know various kinds of samadhi or background mind or... the infinity of space, etc. How can you have an etc. bigger than infinity? But anyway, infinity, etc. You don't have to translate that as good, don't you?

[109:05]

And each one has a feeling of being always there. And as you know, the word atom in English probably means cannot break. What cannot be broken is what atom means. But we've discovered it can be broken. Now we have wiggly little strings that move in ten dimensions. And what? A hundred years later we're still debating special relativity of Einstein to see what it really means. It was published in 1906.

[110:31]

I'll just point that out because it takes a long time to absorb revolutionary ideas into our culture and thinking. So we work with the contrast and we begin to refrain from thinking one of them is permanent. Dharma was originally thought in early Buddhism to be the final unit of that which really exists. And then Nagarjuna comes along and Nagarjuna says, even these little units don't really exist.

[111:42]

I'm not going to ask Adin anything right now. Or the work leader. Okay. So anyway, I want to come back to this. Yeah, well, I'll do it today in Tesho maybe. But let me say, since we've got the flipchart here and I won't have it during this afternoon, This is very simple, but maybe it's easier if I point it out. We have, okay, we're doing, in the morning we do nine bows.

[113:05]

And probably many of you know, when the ninth is coming, before the dawn, David hits the little bell and the big bell. Now, do you know this because your body knows the nine bowels? Or do I know it because Ulrike knows the nine bowels and I feel it from Ulrike? So, in other words, you have a person. You don't have to translate that. And then you have a situation. And then you have another person, V1 and V2.

[114:08]

And this is the situation. Now, do you receive the information that the ninth vow has happened from the situation, or do you receive it from the other person? Or do you know it from the dawn? Not from anything, but from some other feeling. One thing I pointed out quite often is this, what I call, Lebit space. Benjamin Lebit, L-E-B-I-T. Now we have wiggly little strings that move in ten dimensions. And what?

[115:11]

A hundred years later we're still debating special relativity of Einstein to see what it really means. It was published in 1906. I'll just point that out because it takes a long time to absorb revolutionary ideas into our culture and thinking. So, But, so we work with the contrast and we begin to refrain from thinking one of them is permanent.

[116:15]

Dharma was originally thought in early Buddhism to be the final unit of that which really exists. And then Einstein. And then Nagarjuna comes along. And Nagarjuna says, even these little units don't really exist. I'm not going to ask Adin anything right now. Or the work leader. So anyway, I want to come back to this.

[117:28]

Yeah, well, I'll do it today in Tesho maybe. But let me say, since we've got the flip chip here and I won't have it this afternoon, This is very simple, but maybe it's easier if I point it out. We're doing, in the morning we do nine bows. And probably many of you know, when the ninth is coming, before the dawn, David hits the little bell and the big bell. Now, do you know this because your body knows the nine bowels? Or do I know it because Ulrike knows the nine bowels and I feel it from Ulrike?

[118:43]

So, in other words, you have a person. You don't have to translate that. And then you have a situation. And then you have another person, P1 and P2. And this is the situation. Now, do you receive the information that the ninth vow has happened from the situation, or do you receive it from the other person? Or do you know it from the dawn? Not from anything, but from some other feeling. One thing I pointed out quite often is this, what I call, Lebit space.

[119:49]

Benjamin Lebit, L-E-B-I-T. Epithelial neurobiologist who had The 70s, working in San Francisco, showed that your arm moves, the body knows the arm is going to move, or it's decided to move the body before there's conscious delivery of that information. So the situation, let's say, includes all of this. But the person also includes the situation. But, and this person and this person include that.

[120:59]

So, we could also say it's something like this. Here's, let's just take the two persons. And I should have drawn it probably so they overlap. Let's call it this way, too. Conscious experience is about there. So in many situations there's a parallel knowing that goes on that we cannot know consciously. or virtually not know consciousness.

[122:04]

But you can see evidence that there's actually a kind of knowing that's below the threshold of consciousness that's going on all the time. And much of practice and the ritual in practice is to develop the the bodily grammar of parallel knowing. Because practice practice of zazen and mindfulness definitely does enhance parallel knowing. And we have this famous phrase within our lineage, Although I do not hear the teaching of insentient beings, do not interfere with that which hears it.

[123:15]

Do not hinder that which hears it. So sociologists use a term, interlocking participation networks. It's a technical term in English. Oh, yeah? I don't know. For sociologists. Interlocking. Participation. Networks. Now, those are understood in sociological terms, but we actually have something like that that are mental states, implicit, not explicit to us, but implicit mental states that are interlocking participation networks. And this is one of the things... that the Abhidharma is trying to present to us.

[124:33]

Now you can see, and I'll end in a moment, you can see in what Peter Dreyer brought up, hair dryer, You were a biologist who in the 70s working in San Francisco showed that your arm moves the body knows the arm is going to move or it's decided to move the body before there's conscious delivery of that information. So the situation, let's say, includes all of this. But the person also includes the situation. But, and this person and this person include that.

[125:59]

So, we could also say it's something like this. Let's just take the two persons. And I should have drawn it probably so they overlap. Let's call it this way, too. Conscious experience is about there. So in many situations there's a parallel knowing that goes on that we cannot know consciously. or virtually cannot know consciousness.

[127:04]

But you can see evidence that there's actually a kind of knowing that's below the threshold of consciousness that's going on all the time. And much of practice and the ritual in practice is to develop the the bodily grammar of parallel knowing. Because practice The practice of zazen and mindfulness definitely does enhance parallel knowing. We have this famous phrase within our lineage, although I do not hear the teaching of insentient beings, do not interfere with that which hears it.

[128:15]

Do not hinder that which hears it. So, sociologists use a term, interlocking participation networks. It's a technical term in English. Oh, yeah? For sociologists. Interlocking. Participation. Networks. Now, those are understood in sociological terms, but we actually have something like that that are mental states, implicit, not explicit to us, but implicit mental states that are interlocking participation networks. And this is one of the things... that the Abhidharma is trying to present to us.

[129:33]

Now you can see, and I'll end in a moment, you can see in what Peter Dreyer brought up, hair dryer, Sorry. Now I've forgotten everything. What was I going to say? Oh yeah. How, when we look at these four, five factors of mental development, then we can see that when we read it as a list in the Abhidharma, it's kind of like... Directions for running your dishwasher.

[130:46]

But if you put that list into your dishwasher... That list begins to develop. And so the way I spoke about that list is very different than just reading the list. So one of the things that's happening in this seminar, winter branches. The real topic here is not the Abhidharma, but should we study or should we not study. The way I've been teaching over the years, most of you haven't really got it that you ought to study. Sorry, my fault.

[131:51]

But the custom in Zen, and maybe I should be more explicit about it, if I as a teacher say, Dogen speaks about the blue mountains walking. That should be all I have to say. Each of you goes and finds that fascicle, reads that, and studies that. I shouldn't have to tell you to do it. If I have to tell you to do it, you're considered the lowest form of student. The one you have to beat with a whip, not the one that hears through the shadows of it. I'm sorry, I'm just telling you. I know you're not low, but anyway... Eigentlich sollte es so sein, dass ich nur diesen Ausdruck von dem Wandern im Berg sage, ihr geht hin, sucht das raus in den Plastik, studiert das, lernt das und so weiter.

[132:59]

Und dass ich euch ermuntern muss, das überhaupt zu suchen und zu studieren, bedeutet eigentlich, dass ihr die niederste Stufe der Studenten seid, die nicht dir mehr die Peitsche zeigt, sondern die sie spüren. Und natürlich weiß ich, dass ihr nicht die niederste Stufe der Studenten seid. You know, the story in 2 Christian Tales and Zen Minds, I mean this. the horse which has to be hit, the horse which knows the shadow of the whip, and the horse which knows before the rider knows. And then Sukhirashi says, but which one do you suppose the Buddha has sympathy for? The one you have to hit with the whip. But anyway, that's the idea. So then when you go back to that

[133:59]

about the blue mountains walking and you have the comment of the teacher there's a kind of parallel knowing that occurs it's not that you learn what Dogen says but you bring it more into your practice into your mindfulness into your intentions And then the list, you know, like the list of the five mental factors, let's say that, for example. If you put it in water, you know, and keep moving it, it starts to collect things. That, um... Now I've forgotten everything.

[135:17]

What was I going to say? Oh, yeah. When we look at these four, five factors of mental development, then we can see that when we read it as a list in the Abhidharma, it's kind of like Directions for running your dishwasher. But if you put that list into your dishwasher... That list begins to develop. And so the way I spoke about that list is very different than just reading the list. So one of the things that's happening in this seminar,

[136:19]

winter branches. Is the real topic here is not the Abhidharma, but should we study or should we not study? And the way I've been teaching over the years, most of you haven't really got it that you ought to study. Sorry, my fault. But the custom in Zen, and maybe I should be more explicit about it, if I as a teacher say, Dogen speaks about the blue mountains walking. That should be all I have to say. Each of you goes and finds that fascicle, reads that, and studies that.

[137:32]

I shouldn't have to tell you to do it. If I have to tell you to do it, you're considered the lowest form of student. The one you have to beat with a whip, not the one that hears through the shadow of the whip. I'm sorry, I'm just telling you. I know you're not low, but anyway... Actually, it should be like this, that I just say this exclamation point with the hike to the mountain, you go there, look for it in the class, study it, learn it, and so on. And that I have to encourage you to look for it at all and to study it, actually means that you are the lowest level of students, not those who show me the wrong things, but those who feel them. And of course I know that you are not the lowest level of students. And you know, the story in 2 Christian Tales and Zen in my beginning, I mean this. the horse which has to be hit, the horse which knows the shadow of the whip, and the horse which knows before the rider knows. And then Sukershi says, but which one do you suppose the Buddha has sympathy for?

[138:34]

The one you have to hit with the whip. But anyway, that's the idea. So then when you go back to that about the blue mountains walking and you have the comment of the teacher there's a kind of parallel knowing that occurs it's not that you learn what Dogen says but you bring it more into your practice into your mindfulness into your intentions And then the list... you know, like the list of the five mental factors, let's say that for example.

[139:55]

If you put it in water, you know, and keep moving it, it starts to collect things. So these lists, these teachings are meant to be immersed in various kinds of mental states, They're meant to generate certain kinds of mental states and then being in those mental states they open up the teaching. They're supposed to generate... They open up the teaching. So if you just read the list, you think this is really terrible. But if you find ways to start bringing it into your practice, that's what it's meant to do. And as I've often pointed out, that's what the

[140:56]

titles of sutras, titles of Dogen's fascicles, the title itself is meant to, if you practice with it and turn it and turn it in your practice, the entire fascicle, almost without your reading it, will come alive. It's like a time-delayed capsule pill or time-released capsule. So this seminar, this Winter Branches, this first session is probably more about whether we should study and how we should study than anything else. And about how to make study wave follows wave, or parallel knowing.

[142:18]

Now, a number of you have said to me, geez, I'm listening to the Abhidharma, and it's really what you've been teaching all along these years. But what I'm trying to say now is, yes, that's true, but if you know more about the Abhidharma, you'll understand what I'm saying in a much more penetrating way. Thank you for translating all this stuff. You're welcome. So these lists, these teachings are meant to be immersed in various kinds of mental states. They're meant to generate certain kinds of mental states. And then being in those mental states, they open up the teaching.

[143:30]

They open up the teaching. So if you just read the list, you think this is really terrible. But if you find ways to start bringing it into your practice, That's what it's meant to do. And as I've often pointed out, that's what the titles of sutras, titles of Dogen's fascicles, the title itself is meant to, if you practice with it and turn it and turn it in your practice, the entire fascicle, almost without your reading it, will come alive. It's like a time-delayed capsule pill or time-released capsule.

[144:37]

As it comes. So this seminar, or this Winter Branches, this first session, is probably more about whether we should study and how we should study than anything else. And about how to make study wave follows wave, or parallel knowing. Now, a number of you have said to me, geez, I'm listening to the R. B. Dahmer, and it's really what you've been teaching all along these years.

[145:41]

But what I'm trying to say now is, yes, that's true, but if you know more about the Abhidharma, you'll understand what I'm saying in a much more... penetrating way thank you for translating all this stuff you're welcome

[146:03]

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