Yes, and Christian will translate. I am very happy that you are here. Is there anyone here who I've never met before? Okay, well, sometimes it takes a little while to get used to how I talk about Buddhism, but I'll try to. You have to speak more loud. You've never translated for me before. But even those of you who are familiar with my teaching, we always have to

[01:01]

establish some sort of base anyway. And is anyone here unfamiliar with meditations practice? Okay. Well, we have this topic, your, our Buddha nature. The question immediately comes up, what do we have some kind of other nature other than our usual nature? And what would be our... if there is some other nature?

[02:22]

Or how many natures do we have? Sometimes Buddha-nature is called your true nature. So instead of trying to start out right away with some idea of Buddha-nature, I'd like to just bring up the question first of all, do you have a sense of your own nature? Do you have a sense of what

[03:23]

what your nature actually is, and perhaps what it could be. And if we do have some feeling of what our nature could be, is that the same as what Buddhism means by Buddha nature? What's the relationship to what could be? What we feel we could be? What Buddhism would say that we already are or could be? I think to practice with such an idea, this teaching of Buddha nature, you really have to, it has to make sense, it has to engage your own life somehow.

[04:48]

You have to feel some connection with it in your own life. So you have to start out with some very simple and basic questions. Like How does this relate to how we usually think of ourselves? I want also, if I speak about Buddha nature, I should speak about the Bodhisattva as well. Wenn ich über die Buddha-Natur spreche, sollte ich auch über den Bodhisattva sprechen.

[06:03]

There are basic teachings for the practice of realizing what a Bodhisattva is. Es gibt grundlegende Lehren über das Verständnis, was der Bodhisattva ist. Is the Bodhisattva again like the same question? Is it some other kind of person than we already are? Or is it a deeper understanding of what we already are? Or is it some combination of these things? Now, when I first started to practice, I would have felt it was sort of artificial to think about some other nature.

[07:08]

Or some particular kind of mind. For the mind of a bodhisattva is initially described as a mind of generosity. Not just someone who practices acts of generosity, but someone who's, we say, courses in generosity. Whose state of mind is an open generous state of mind. But I know that when I again first started in the 60s to practice I had some idea of

[08:13]

Zen practice should be natural or something like that. Or it should be somehow what we actually are. And I was trying to get away from the idea of controlling my mind. or being controlled by others or something like that. I was, in a sense, trying to get free of my culture. And I saw culture as though there's some kind of force controlling me my behavior and controlling me through others. Controlling me and controlling me through others.

[09:27]

So I certainly objected to any idea of control. or creating certain states of mind. But, you know, Zen is a study of, or we could say, Zen is a study of how we actually exist. And that part I liked. That part I liked. But the way in which But it's also the case that Zen is involved in how you establish a state of mind.

[10:36]

The Diamond Sutra, one of the main Buddhist teachings used in Zen practice. The Buddha returns from his morning begging, rounds of begging. And he has his lunch. and he cleans his bowls and then he washes his feet and then he sits with upright posture and he establishes, fixes his mindfulness Which first of all means he's not always in some mindful state.

[11:51]

But he establishes a mind of awareness. So I would have, you know, when I read the Diamond Sutra in those days, I kind of skipped over that. I couldn't deal exactly with the idea that you created a state of mind. Also mit dieser Idee, dass man erstmal einen Bewusstseinszustand, einen Geisteszustand kreieren muss, damit habe ich mich erstmal nicht auseinandergesetzt. Ich wollte vielleicht einen bestimmten Geisteszustand entdecken, aber nicht hervorbringen. But bodhisattva practice is about creating states of mind. A mind of generosity. Yeah, but then it's also about discovering Our true nature.

[12:59]

Or realizing our true nature. Or is that uncovering a true nature that's already there? The way you answer these questions makes an entirely different teaching. And I think the practices related to Buddha nature and the Bodhisattva won't make sense unless you sort of mull over these questions yourself. To think over, like mulled wine.

[14:00]

Yeah. But on the other hand, I remember, you know, I, from the time I was a kid, I've been quite attached to books. And all my aunts and uncles and so forth learned I liked books, so every Christmas I got a pile of books. And I accumulated, for a kid, quite a big library. And then other kids would sometimes want to borrow my books. Well, so I'd loan them my books. But then sometimes they wouldn't come back.

[15:01]

Yeah, and sometimes they'd come back when the pages bent over. Sometimes they'd come back And sometimes they'd come back with Coca-Cola on them. So I didn't want to loan my books. But then I discovered I didn't feel very good not loaning my books. So long before I started practicing Buddhism I discovered that I felt better if I gave the book away at the time I loaned it. So if somebody wanted to borrow a book, I'd say, oh sure, you can borrow it.

[16:13]

And if I mind, I'd say, it's yours, it's gone. If I got it back, I... Yeah, I was happy, but I really felt better when I let go of it. So actually, when I stopped to think about it, I realized I was controlling my state of mind. I was controlling my state of mind. If I discovered that an attitude of giving a book away makes me feel better than being attached to it, this is already the germ of bodhisattva practice. And then at some point I also noticed or felt that the human being, the person who was borrowing my book, was far more important than the book.

[17:33]

After all, the book's just a paper and stuff. So I began to somehow some intuition that the physical world and attachment were not very important compared to actual human beings. So already You know, and I think this must be a fairly common experience, this kind of thing. But in such simple observations or insights is the seed of what is Bodhisattva practice and what is we mean by realizing your true nature or realizing your Buddha nature now I can ask another kind of question

[18:59]

our body needs a certain kind of space and that space is not just limited to our physical space and our mind needs a certain kind of space So what kind of space would our Buddha nature need? I don't know, this evening I'm just trying to establish a territory of feeling, thinking about this. So I bring up this peculiar idea of what kind of space does our Buddha nature need?

[20:15]

Or what kind of space could we make for our Buddha nature. Now, Advaita, your baby is what, a couple weeks older than her? Days only? Three days over. And I bet it's a girl. Right, and I bet she looks down on her as younger. But you're probably watching your baby develop consciousness just as we are. Yeah, and as I mentioned before, You know, the baby's arms first of all just flailed around.

[21:32]

And it took a while to get her sensory fields together. Yeah, so that she could... If you were here and then you came up here, for her it was a different object. It's not the same object. But after a while she gets her visual field together and she sees it's the same object. same big old funny guy with no hair so far away and close. And then she begins to see that there's a relationship between seeing something and hearing something. And she can follow a sound, with her ears or eyes.

[22:40]

And that still, putting her sensory fields together, still precedes consciousness. And then slowly, over the weeks and first months, she puts her consciousness together. Tied to her sensory fields. And now she can, before she could kind of grab something, but now she can very specifically grab my eyebrow or nose or whatever she wants to, pretty much.

[23:40]

Okay, so she's established her sensory fields and a consciousness. And within that, she's going to start creating a personality. Now, Buddhism assumes there's something called tanha. Yeah, which means a basic thirst or hunger. And Buddhism assumes that that means you have a thirst or hunger for not less than everything. And she certainly has an interest. Now she's got to start shaping this, you know, because it won't be everything.

[24:43]

shaping her consciousness because if you have a thirst for not less than everything she's going to have to start getting used to having less than everything So if this basic thirst or interest or decision to stay alive which shapes our sensory fields shapes our consciousness and begins to shape our presence. But in our culture we don't develop presence very much. What do I mean by presence? Yeah. I'll get back to that in a minute. But if this basic thirst, which shapes our sensory fields and our consciousness, does it shape our human nature?

[26:13]

Does it shape our Buddha nature? Our Bodhisattva nature. How do we get from this basic thirst for not less than everything to the practice of a Bodhisattva? To one who realizes their Buddha nature. realizes how we actually exist. Now in the second foundation of mindfulness it's a seemingly simple one where you

[27:16]

Have what's pleasant or unpleasant. Or neither. Like if I pat his shoulder, maybe that's pleasant. Or if I hit him, maybe he's unpleasant. And for our two babies, if you pat them, they like it. If they scratch themselves, you really don't think the parents are scratching them. It's unpleasant. And that's before they have much of a personality or any psychology. They discover what they know, what's pleasant and unpleasant. But they don't That really doesn't translate into like and dislike. Or to greed and hate.

[28:29]

So you have some kind of shift from pleasant and unpleasant. And neither. To like and dislike and neutral. To greed, hate and delusion. And what's that territory, that shift from pleasant to greed? Is our true nature greed, hate and delusion? Is our nature tied to likes and dislikes? Or can we somehow have a way of being that's not rooted In likes and dislikes or greed and hate.

[29:41]

In likes and dislikes or greed and hate. So some kind of consideration of this has to be made. not as philosophy but as looking at yourself when do you find something pleasant and unpleasant or when are you involved in likes and dislikes or actually real possessiveness and aversion or hate. Now we set up categories like here and there.

[30:42]

You know, these two babies have very little relationship, very little inside-outside distinction. Maybe it's not true of your baby, but my baby drools all over the place constantly, from all openings. And she doesn't mind walking around with her tongue hanging out. But after a while she'll learn to keep her tongue in her mouth most of the time. And that's something we'll teach her. And that's something we'll teach you. Yeah, and some, you know, Mongoloid kids sometimes can't learn it. They don't learn to make a distinction between inside and outside. So we have to set up inside-outside distinctions.

[32:22]

But part of practice is to free ourselves from inside-outside distinctions. Yes, but we still have to teach our babies inside-outside distinctions. And we have to teach them here and there. Yeah, one of the first things we do with babies is teach them to count 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and their ABCs and so forth. And this is a way of creating a space or territory. You begin to structure the mind, so I can say Beate is there, Andreas is there. Yeah, and those are not just that they are in two different places, they also have to be something we can perceive and know mentally.

[33:28]

It's not just that you are in two different places now, but we have to be there spiritually as well. Yuan Wu, one of the most famous Zen masters, Yuan Wu, Y-U-A-N, W-Wu, Yuan Wu, one of the most famous Zen masters, the compiler of the Blue Cliff Records, he has the Blue Cliff Records, the... which is the most famous of the hundred collection of Zen stories, koans. He says, do not set up here and there. Do not set up before and after.

[34:31]

Okay, so say if we can, as well as having a mind which knows inside and outside, let's say that we will know a mind that knows It knows inside and outside. And it sets up here and there. Before and after. Before you came here and after our meal and so forth. That's, you know, quite natural to be like that. But we have to, to function. But within that, can we also set up a mind or not set up here and there? Establish a mind that doesn't Realize a mind that doesn't establish before and after.

[35:44]

But doesn't establish here and there. What way can we weave ourselves in the world in such a case? Okay, that's enough. So I mostly just asked you a bunch of questions. but questions that again are not philosophy but questions about that ask you to notice how you how we're actually existing you know Castaneda says that all culture is a foreign installation

[36:54]

Castaneda sagt, alle Kulturen sind eine fremde Installation, fremde... Foreign domain, like an army base? Ja, eine fremde Bastion. You know, like again, as I've said, these two babies by the time up until about a year old can learn the sounds of any language and could learn the sounds of languages not yet thought of but after about one year they can not very difficult to learn the sounds of languages they haven't been exposed. And these babies are going to learn Dutch, German, American, et cetera, cultures.

[37:57]

And these are particular ways of shaping the world. Particular ways of shaping here and there and before and after. here and there, before and after. But it's still something our culture installs in us. Can we somehow be free of this installation? Can we get free of it by not setting up before and after? Can we notice what we set up?

[39:10]

How we establish the world that we see in our senses and in our consciousness? Now we don't want to go back to being a baby. But we can use observing how a baby begins to establish their consciousness to notice how we establish ours. and how we might realize our life stream, which is wider than our ego, our self, or our particular culture. What time are you supposed to meet again tomorrow? Should we have a 30-minute period or 40 minutes?

[40:23]

What would you like? Forty? Forty? Do I hear fifty? Fifty. Okay, forty minutes, and you can sit... On a cushion or on a chair or whatever you like. It's not necessary to come, but I'd like you to come. And I think it'll help make more sense of the seminar if you do come. Okay. So... 7.30 we'll sit. And we'll have breakfast about 8.30.

[41:45]

And we'll start the seminar at 9.30, 10? So we'll start at 10. Okay. Thank you very much. You have to speak louder than me, because I can whisper. Oh, you want me to speak louder too? You can speak in German first.

[42:57]

You can speak in German first. Yeah, say it loud enough. Oh, yeah. What sense does it make to meditate at 5 o'clock in the morning and not relate it? It doesn't make any sense. It's Matthew Hopkins. Or if you imagine it made sense. What sense do you think it could make? The only thing I can think of that the morning is the natural awakening hour of the whole of nature. Yeah, that's a good reason.

[44:04]

That's one good reason. See, you didn't have to ask me the question. Can you think of some other good reasons? Oh, well, okay. Can I help you? What happens when you meditate? You discover some kind of mind. Is it a mind you know without meditating? Ist das ein Geist, den du kennst, ohne zu meditieren? Yeah, mostly not.

[45:07]

Meistens ist das nicht so. So if it's a mind you don't notice or have without meditating, also wenn das ein Geist ist, den du nicht hast oder kennst, wenn du nicht meditierst, then it's a mind you're not born with. or something created. Okay, what's it created from? Or what are the minds we are born with? What minds are we born with? I think mostly with those that differentiate inside and outside.

[46:11]

Yeah, that's consciousness. So we're born, traditionally it's said, long before Buddhism, we're born with waking mind. Wachen Geist. Dreaming mind. And non-dreaming deep sleep. So, and what characterizes those three minds? They don't know much about each other. So, maybe it's possible that the mind of meditation can know something about these other three minds. And if it could know something about these other three minds, when's a good time to meditate?

[47:15]

It has to be the time where those three minds come together. Yeah, that's right. That's basic idea. You're more likely to have an overlap of dreaming mind and non-dreaming deep sleep early in the morning than other times of the day. So in a way it helps to know something about Buddhism and the history of spirituality in India? But basically you don't really need to know much about that.

[48:37]

All the ingredients you already have to understand the question. And what's the great mystery of the last 200 years? What is the unconscious? It's been the main subject of Western culture. What is the unconscious? That's the main question of Western consciousness. What is the unconscious? And what's the only entry that Freud and most psychotherapists have had to the unconscious? Yeah. Dreaming, yeah. What's the other one? Free association. Free association is the mind that tends to occur when you start to meditate.

[49:58]

That's why it's so difficult to count your breath. Because you start to free associate. The other mystery, of course, I think for many people in Europe and America, is what Castaneda and the use of psychedelics and so forth pointed to. Is there some spiritual reality or... subtle reality that's outside our consciousness and meditation also particularly early in the morning begins to weave mind and body together and dreaming mind and waking mind

[51:10]

And generate a mind that's more open to the subtlety of intimacy of our world. And your observation that the whole world gets up is right too, I think. For... force this huge transition where birds and insects and everybody starts making noise at a particular time so we try to meditate generally slightly before dawn So the world wakes up in us.

[52:34]

Instead of us waking up in the world. So is that enough of an answer, maybe, to your question? But you helped me answer, so thank you. Where's Zoe? Right outside the door. Oh. Any other questions anybody has? Do you have a choice? Can you say that we're not one with this general concept? Or is it something we learn? It's a good question. And a lot of Buddhist pedagogy, the way of teaching Buddhism turns on that question.

[53:36]

And some Buddhist people say this mind is intrinsic. Which implies it's already there, already part of us. Then you have to have a teaching which uncovers that mind. But if you don't think it's already there, then you have to have a teaching which generates that mind. And I think it's a naturalistic mistake to think it's already there. It's a common mistake in Asia.

[54:53]

Yeah. And it's a more... What would be the word? A more... more yeah like that he's practicing it being a good translator he's already why didn't I just stop and you you got it I don't want to use the it's something like more intrinsic problem in the West Because we basically have a theological, naturalistic view of the world. That there is a creator and we are all created. Well, they're very closely related.

[56:18]

In the theological view, God put it there. In a natural view, nature put it there. In a Buddhist view, There's lots of possibilities, but so many you can't say there's anything already there. So, how would I put it? Well, no, no. You don't have to become a clown.

[57:22]

Why is it more useful? Because these are only descriptions. And both ways of describing things have a lot of accuracy. But some ways of describing things are more fruitful. If you think it's already there, in some way, you think there's a certain number of possibilities available to you. But if you think you have to generate it, Then there's millions of possibilities. So if this mind, let's call it a fourth mind, a mind that's not waking, dreaming, or deep sleep, Or if all of those combined or something.

[59:18]

What that is, is up to you to generate. And the way you generate it will be different from other people. Buddhism can teach you the way to generate it. And to make use of many things that are already part of you. Because aspects of it are already there. So you have a much more open system the way Buddhism looks at it. Am I making sense? No? It's maybe not so important for most of us practicing.

[60:21]

It's maybe not so important for most of us who are practicing. But for me it's very important. Because I don't want to give you advice that misleads you. And if I give you advice that it's already there and you're uncovering it, Which many Zen teachers do. That I'm simplifying you. And one of the main problems I see in our culture is our culture actually simplifies us. Yeah. I'll come back to that. Is there something else? Is there something else? Yes, I... Somehow I'm feeling this. It's going to be... Somehow I'm feeling this. It's going to be... Somehow I'm feeling this. [...]

[61:23]

Somehow I'm feeling this. [...] Somehow I'm feeling this It's a different feeling, yes. There's a song I knew as a kid, stumbling all around, stumbling all around. That's how you've been practicing Buddhism. Helping to stumble over enlightenment. But one can stumble over enlightenment. Because enlightenment basically is to see past the structures of mind.

[62:26]

But to build, generate a mind of enlightenment, you can't stumble onto it. But you can stumble onto enlightenment experiences. And such people are called Pratyekabuddhas. Not Buddhists, Buddhas. Buddhas? Yeah, Pratyekabuddhas. It's one category of a Buddha. And I think most, as I've often said, most artists fall into the category of Pratyekabuddhas. And I think most artists, good artists, actually work out of some enlightening techniques. but they generally only know how to replicate it or reference it and occasionally through their art mature it they only know how to replicate it or reference it like you see in a

[63:54]

poets, lines that reflect back to the experience. And sometimes they can mature the experience through their art. Something else? Yes? Yes, you were talking yesterday evening about... Yeah Once you speak in German first I think about the Buddha nature of young people. It is different from my own. And at the same time there is a sense of this experience of community. But when I look at people, I think there are different aspects of the Buddha nature. Is that not my thinking or is it?

[65:10]

Okay, now English please. So I think about Buddha nature is Buddha natures are different from each other. Your Buddha nature is different from my Buddha nature. And when we sit together there is a lot of feeling of doneness. sometimes. But when I look at people, I feel that they are really at different aspects. Which feel to me, to seem to me, be a life and something, quality of life. And so, this feels as if, is it all the same? Yeah, it's interesting. I'd like you to speak in German first. Not only for the benefit of everyone else, but because if I feel you, you're much more engaged in German than English.

[66:13]

So the extent that I can feel what you're saying, I can feel it better in German, even though I don't understand it, than I can when you speak English. Well, I mean, let's, I don't think, I think you can say, um, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, [...] um, Let me come back to that, okay? It raises so many questions. We'll have to talk about Buddha nature and Buddha and Bodhisattvas, etc., before we can... Okay? Okay. Someone over here? Anyone else? No one else?

[67:29]

You're almost ready to say something. No? Oh, okay. I'm almost ready to say something. I want to say something to you. To the three different kinds of mind. I want to say something about the three kinds of mind, whether they are natural. Sometimes I think the waking mind, dreaming mind, and non-dreaming mind. They differ to the extent they are involved with concepts. And sometimes there are conditions, for example, when I go to the sea for the first time, when I go to the sea for the first time in a year,

[68:40]

There are states of mind for example when I see the sea or the ocean for the first time in a year maybe. There can be for a short period of time there can be a state of mind that is almost free of concepts. That's why I think that the meditative mind or the mind of meditation is somehow muted or has a in something that is already there or that was born. Speak loudly enough so that Sophia can hear.

[69:51]

And it is innate, yeah. What was the last one about innate? That the quality of this state of mind can be also there although I haven't trained it. Yes, that's true. Buddhism is very analytical. But it's analytical about how the mind works. But it's not analytical about what our spiritual or deepest experiences are. It analyzes the problems it interferes with, that interfere, but it doesn't analyze our experience.

[71:04]

So, Cavafy, a poet, first half of the 19th century, 20th century, Early third of the 20th century. He has a poem like something like you said. might not be exactly your experience. But he says that I saw the ocean. Or did I really see it? I saw it for a moment. I think I saw it for a moment. And then I was back to my usual erotic thoughts. So, if for some reason you catch yourself, like you've seen the ocean, haven't seen the ocean in a long time, sometimes it comes to you past your usual way of thinking.

[72:23]

And you know, we can then look at that. And make a distinction between the object of perception and mental formations. And it's something you can practice with. So Andreas is here, so I can use him as an example. So I can look at him as an object of perception. He was not much thought about, he's just there. And I can feel him.

[73:29]

But if I think about him, oh, Andreas has just helped us get a car and other things. Those are mental formations. And mental formations create a different kind of mind. If I just have an object of perception, if I can return to the mind which arises from just perceiving, it's closer to the experience of actually seeing the ocean. That's one reason sounds at night have such a power for us. Or the doves. Are those doves that we hear cooing in the mornings? I don't know. Are doves taube? And in Japan, when I was in the monastery, I'd hear doves like that all the time.

[74:33]

So if you just hear something without thinking about it it somehow merges with all the times you've heard it before It merges at a sensory level, not a memory level It's not a conceptual memory like you think about it historically. So the Surya Sutta says that sounds are the most powerful way to realize your true nature and to realize in mind. Sounds. The what Sutta? Surya Sutta. So I'm trying to you know last night today just kind of cover some territory

[75:54]

So we begin to have some shared sense of what we might be talking about. Let me go back to about culture simplifying this. Obviously, I'm involved with being a father again at my advanced age. It's hard for me to not talk about it. And I'm going to have to be 85 to see this kid into college. So I'm hoping she's the fountain of youth. But I just flew here from Mexico on Tuesday.

[77:31]

I got a little cold in Mexico, you can hear, and the airplane didn't do it any good. But I think it's almost gone now, just a little itchy. Anyway on the plane they have these little you know television sets And one of the channels had this some sort of interview with pretty girls Some modeling shoot or something, I don't know what it was. It was after the movie. I didn't really watch, but then I woke up and it was this thing. These are pretty. very pretty young women and they must be intelligent.

[78:47]

But they sure sound stupid. They sure sound stupid. I mean, they just can't be that simple. I think beauty tends to simplify people. Because sort of everything, much comes your way without your having to make much effort. But anyway, I think it's really culture simplifies us. But it's not, it doesn't just simplify us. I mean, I don't know, all I can do is ramble if I talk about this. Let's look at language.

[79:59]

You know, I'm always struck by somebody like Ben Johnson, the actor, poet of Shakespeare's time. Playwright. He's an actor and a playwright. And he had a vocabulary supposedly of about 8,000 words. But Shakespeare had a vocabulary supposedly of about 35,000 to 40,000 words. And many of the words in English he created. So what does that mean? That Shakespeare was able to make 35,000 distinctions? Or, Ben Johnson could make at least 8,000.

[81:01]

And could hold those distinctions and use them in the system of language. So on the one hand, language gives us immense possibilities to look at the world. And I look at Zoe or Sophia. And I see a very complex little human beings getting ready to use language. But once they learn it, which has all the possibilities of Ben Johnson or Shakespeare or whatever. They learn it in the simplest forms possible.

[82:04]

Why is that? I think life doesn't, our culture doesn't expect more of them. And I think that's why some people end up practicing Buddhism. Because you feel your own complexity as a human being. Or you come to a complex point in your life. Of suffering or transformation or something. And you don't have the resources to meet it. Or no one around you has the resources to meet it. Or when you are a high school student or college student or university student.

[83:16]

Even in the university. It's a pretty predictable system. And it doesn't answer our inner complexity, our inner subtlety, our inner sense of the world. Maybe if you study physics or something, it approaches our subtlety as human beings. But that same subtlety isn't extended to how we live in the world and how the world is lived by most people.

[84:19]

So if you wonder how the world is lived by most people, so you come into a kind of Reverse renunciation. You don't renounce the world because it's corrupt. And you want to simplify your life. You renounce the world because it's too simple and you want to complexify your life. Well, you just want your life to be... Complexer. Complexified, I should say. There's no such word in English, so... So... I like having three translations.

[85:34]

Mine, his, and yours. Each of yours. So you know none of the translations are the truth. We're all sort of aiming at something. So we end up sometimes practicing meditation because it's the only time we begin to feel intimate with our own subtlety. We need to bring that subtlety back into Through meditation we can bring that subtlety back into our life. And find the deep patience to enter into life. And that deep patience has something to do with Buddha nature. So let's, maybe it's a good time to have a break.

[86:49]

So let's come back about quarter to twelve. And what time do we have lunch? One o'clock. Thank you very much. Thank you for traveling. You're welcome.

[87:13]

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