Well, I think you're right that this sense of the backbone in practice is a way of establishing connectedness. That's a way of establishing connectedness. And not just in Zazen, in Kinhin, if you're... want to get more deeply into qin hin, walking meditation. When you're walking, at least a few steps, feel the earth coming up through your heel. And lifting up through your spine and through your head and then down into your next step.

[01:02]

This is sort of like also this statement, heaven and earth and I share the same root. And I don't know what theater tradition you come from, and I don't know also the Russian background of Stanislavski and Boleslavski's work. Your work, yeah. But having studied Stanislavski and Boleslavski, There's something about Buddhism or Zen in there. Those guys, yeah. And Keith Johnstone, who was a, I haven't seen him in a long time, but was a friend of mine who did this book, Impro. He used to come to Zen Center a lot and work with Zen students doing improv stuff.

[02:09]

Improvisations. And he told, I think, Christoph Wolf... Bulfink or Kai Eichmann, one of the two, he told that Zen students do the best improvisations. In his experience. And Kai or Christoph asked why. And he said, because Zen students, they're willing to be anything. So there is a definite relationship between performance and theater and this practice. Okay. Thank you very much. Yeah? There are three people on that side who will not be there tomorrow.

[03:27]

Tomorrow? This is terrible. Okay, those three can ask a question. Or make a statement. They're not going to… You said you could share. I have to go to the kitchen, yeah. She tells on people, you know. Yeah? I'm a psychotherapist and right now I'm learning craniosacral therapy. And when I'm working with clients, there are different levels on which I can work with. One is the body level, the sphere about one meter around the body, and then there is an opening of the whole womb.

[04:28]

and when I open this room it feels as if I am together with the client ...., well, with the other two rooms it feels as if I am here and the client is there, but when the room opens completely it feels as if the client and I are both in one room. And in the first two I have the feeling the client is there and I am here, but when I open this third level I have the feeling that the client and I, we are in one room. And then it might happen that I have an image of this client, for example, like a five-year-old girl flying above the body. And this girl is speaking to me. And I ask the client, yes, does that make sense to you?

[05:50]

And she says, yes, I had an operation at the time and I almost died when I was five years old. And she might say, yes, I had a surgery when I was five years old and I almost died. And there are many such phenomena that only occur when this room is completely open. then there are many of those phenomena, but they only appear when this third level, this third space is opened. So, I would like to ask, do you have an idea about this, or do you deal with such phenomena? I don't know how to say it, but I don't know how to say it, but I don't know how to say it, but I don't know how to say it, I don't know how to say it, Do you have any ideas about that, like a soul which is somehow not separate from the body and the soul wants to be back in the body or split from the body, so ideas like that?

[06:56]

I also feel very hurt by all these phenomena that can occur, and I don't know if I should protect myself or if I can protect myself at all. And when these things arise I feel very vulnerable and should I protect myself and is there a way to protect myself? And it might happen that I'm very exhausted after such a situation when very traumatic things come up. How did you get from seeing the image of this little girl flying to the idea of a soul and separation from the body? I speak The girl talks to me.

[08:09]

The girl talks to me and it says, yes, I prefer to fly. I don't want to back into that body. Yeah, in some ways I don't know quite how to respond to what you've said. And I don't want to take the position that I know about. What you're speaking about arises from what you're doing. Yeah, and... This is your experience, you know, there's no reason for me to say something about it.

[09:13]

And there's a really nice man, I can't remember his name right now, who practices with us at Crestone, who's a teacher of cranial therapy and teaches in Europe too, Switzerland too, in Basel. Do you remember his name? And Marie-Louise knows his name. I don't use people's names usually. What's his name? He's Ulrike Dillo's teacher, too. He was just staying with David Beck in Basel. Anyway, he's volunteered, and I'd like to learn something from him about this work. Not to do it, but just to know something more about it. And I'd like to learn more about this work from him. But if I spoke... But if I spoke... to what you said from the point of view of Zen practice, you're in a territory, in this room that you share, that in the koans, for example, is called great functioning.

[10:33]

which means you function in the same, it means many things, but one of the things it means is you function in the same psychic space or subtle space of the world and of others. And one meaning is that you function in the same psychic and subtle space of the world and others. But shamans also do, shamanic practices also do something similar. And I sometimes say Zen practice, Zen Buddhism, is a large population urban shamanism. Because shamanism is generally village located, located in a particular geography. But Buddhist practice and Zen practice in particular shares a lot with shamanism.

[11:59]

But it was developed in big cities, really, not in the countrysides. Yeah. But one of the dimensions of this territory, shall we say, of great functioning, is you don't make theories about it. You don't make theories like this is the soul or this is... You just experience things. And you have the very clear knowledge

[13:01]

There's something real about this. It's not just an image of a girl or something. And you develop the experience to, or learn to, just... act on and within this field without theories. And it sounds like you, through your cranial work, have got there somehow. What's meant by great functioning isn't limited to that, but that's an aspect of it. And the deeper aspect of how we know people and know what to do with people... And the deeper aspect is how we know people and experience them. Yes, that's enough said. May I add something?

[14:09]

Of course. I started, I made a not very big, but also a course in family I have the same experiences. When I am the leader, I also see persons who miss who the person didn't mention or something like that. And then it always is really a figure which existed. But when you are in this field, you can see... Yes, I know. ...also this person. In German, please. I didn't take a long, big course, but I took a one-year course in family matters. I also do this in a more protected environment.

[15:13]

And when I have the line, then it also happens to me that I see figures, that I see that someone is missing. And that's also true, that the person who sets up their family then also says, yes, that's true, I forgot that. But you can see that when you are in this field. Yeah. This constellation work or sculpting is quite mysterious and not explainable by science, you know, and so forth. And I've been meeting with, for 15 years now or something like that, a group of about 20 or more, psychotherapists who do this work in Austria. We meet for five days a year, something like that. And this time they said next year they want to do a constellation of awareness

[16:16]

and consciousness. But it's genuinely mysterious when you create a field how these things appear. But it does seem to be the case. This is the same territory you're speaking about. And Zen practice assumes is The actual field of existence. But generally, we don't talk about it. And we don't usually talk about aspects of practice with others until they've already experienced it.

[17:39]

So it's not secret, they're called family matters. Family matters. And so within the family you talk about them, but not outside the family. But all of this stuff is starting, you know, to, you know, it's not just that It's not just that Western culture is interested in Buddhism. Many things are happening in Western culture which make Buddhism interesting. So our lineage of being interested in or practicing these things comes out of the West actually more than comes out of Asia.

[18:46]

You could have all of these Asian teachers here in another period. the 1920s maybe, that would have no social effect. Or the 1850s for sure. But what I've seen in the, not that I know much about it, but in Bart Hellinger's work, It used to be in the earlier days freer than it is now. Now the leaders are often trying to make the shoe fit. They try to direct it more than letting it happen. So they're bringing their ideas and their sense of mastery into it instead of having this humbleness in the face of this process.

[20:15]

And the bescheiden that's necessary to make this practice, these things happen, isn't helped by talking about it. But this is a family occasion, so it's okay. It is family. So someone else, who's the second or third person? Yeah. In these last days I sat much more than... Your whole life before. And when I come here for a seminary and for me it really... Ich sag's Deutsch. Yeah, Deutsch ist gut.

[21:27]

Usually I come to seminars and we don't sit that long. And you sit on the bench in front of the window. So I can always notice you. And now it has really become such an important experience for me what the terms Sangha, Dharma and Satsang mean. It has become a little clearer to me. And I got a feeling for what it means, Sangha and Dharma. Without the schedule and without the others I never could do that.

[22:42]

Yes. I've organized my life so that people keep me sitting. Otherwise I'd be the worst practitioner. And I have a similar feeling, as Doris said before, that it takes me a lot of decisions, this schedule. And I experience a little bit the same, like Doris told us about, the schedule takes away a lot of needs to make decisions. And that makes a bigger, better concentration in Sarsen possible. Better concentration. But I notice that the language is something that I can't quite cope with.

[23:57]

But I can feel that the language is something that is difficult for me to deal with. The Buddhist language or the English language? To speak with persons at the same time. The silence has become an understandable rule for me now. It feels more natural to be in silence, to talk. But I'm also interested to find a language, a way to talk with the others about what we experience. I think it's like a connection to everyday life.

[25:08]

The more I practice being careful, the more I realize that it is difficult to find an authentic language where I am really in contact with other people. Could you say something about this step in everyday life? Could you say something about this lay life and the contact and how to talk with others about that?

[26:11]

Well, I don't like rules either. And I particularly don't like enforcing rules. So I try to create a situation where the structure of the situation does most of the work. And I don't want to have a rule, don't talk. Because then some people, do you enforce it or not? I came down the other evening and everybody was around talking and so forth, etc., And I said to Judita the next morning, Is that a typical evening, everybody just is around talking and socializing in the Dharma vacation house?

[27:28]

And I said, Yudita, I think we have to get up earlier, maybe three. Because if people don't know what to do, let's get up earlier and they won't be sitting around talking at nine o'clock. Yudita said, yeah. But on the other hand, we're a sangha, we're developing a family, we're developing a relationship with each other. Generally the rule is you don't talk about practice much with each other. But you... But it's present in just being present with each other. And you know, I think some of you may find that it's annoying that I bow to you all the time.

[28:40]

And I can't expect lay people to come here and get into all this bowing. And I hope when you give Dzogchen instructions, you tell people they can bow if they want, but they don't have to bow. Because when anybody's in social space and not practice space, I feel real odd to have people bow to me, you know. Wenn jemand in so einem sozialen Raum ist und nicht in einem Raum der Stille, dann fühlt sich das sehr seltsam an. Yeah, but the practice of bowing when you meet somebody is, I think, fundamentally reaches into exactly what you're speaking about.

[29:41]

Ja, because you ideally like it. Crestone. Every time you meet someone, you stop. If you can, you stop. Bring your hands in this kind of field, your aura up. to disappear in bowing to the other person or joining this other kind of space with the other person. If in these practice months time we got into the feeling of that, It would actually change things here. But it seems odd to people to do it, you know, if you're not used to it.

[30:47]

One of the little things you can do as a structural thing that actually makes people talk less. But even people who have been at Crestone, when they come back here, they drop the habit. So do I want to make a rule about it? If people who have even been at Crestone don't do it, then I'm not going to bother. But during sashin, we have a rule not to speak. And we have a schedule that keeps you tired enough that you're too tired to speak. Tom, you're tired. I'm sorry. So... And, you know, I... In many ways, I apologize for creating situations which allow you to start to practice.

[32:06]

Because I presume you're leading a perfectly happy life. Sukhiroshi used to say, try to be as happy as you want and you'll see there's some gap. In that gap you start to practice. But still the problem with and why I actually have some reservations about encouraging anyone to practice. Because if you start Because if you start, please stop. And it actually takes, it actually affects you.

[33:09]

At some point you can't easily turn back, you can't easily stop. It starts a process, you feel real dis-ease if you don't continue. Then you start finding your friends find you strange. You can't relate to the world the same way. And you think, well, at that point, that's why we have monasteries. Everyone's finding me too strange, let's go to the monastery. And after some months or five years, you come out and everyone thinks you're great. But we need space to adjust to the changes. the deeper sea of the world that practice enters us into.

[34:26]

And to really do it as a layperson, It's harder than being a monk. And it may even be the case to think you can do it as a lay person is you're deluding yourself. Dogen came to that view at the end of his life. But I'm committed to finding ways to do it as in lay practice. So what mixture of sesshin, monastic practice, semi-monastic practice and lay life and so forth works? So I'm happy to continue this experiment with you, with each of you, any of you.

[35:37]

Okay. Now it's one more person. Who else is leaving tomorrow? Katja and... But Judita is coming back. I'll see you. Judita is coming back forever, I hope, at least for a while. I'm going to ask a question tomorrow afternoon. Yes, but I can ask a question later. She can tell you her question and you can ask for it. Yes. All right, anyway, it's great to be here with you, and thanks a lot, and thanks for translating. And so.

[36:33]

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