Frank was waiting for me and I didn't know he was waiting for me. I was waiting for him to appear. Sorry to keep you waiting. Saskia, to the rescue. Thank you. So how was your discussion and what shall we talk about?

[01:03]

Who's going to be second? Obviously I'm first. Yeah. You were second yesterday. We were not so sure about how to distinguish sas and mind. Because all kinds of different states of mind can appear during sasen that may also appear during not-sasen.

[02:07]

But one essential point for us to distinguish zazen mind from usual mind was the appearance of a particular kind of awareness in relation to or connected with an observing quality. And one clear thing that we can notice is that Zazen mind feels nourishing. And in the usual mind it can easily happen that we are leaking.

[03:32]

In the usual mind? In the usual mind, yes. Energetically. Yes. And people who are sitting regularly are noticing? that when the habitual morning satsang that they've come to do regularly, when that doesn't happen, that the entire day is a little bit more shallow and not as round, and it's a little bit more difficult to get through the day. But the feeling of sasen mind may also appear during going for a walk or while being at work or at any time.

[04:38]

And then there's a kind of sensation as if the light was switched on or as if something was switched on that wasn't there before. Okay. You said for those who are sitting regularly, you mean some people aren't sitting regularly? It shows you what a good teacher I am, you know. I can't even convince you to sit regularly. Another revelation. Well, the differences you bring up are pretty big differences. I mean, such differences as your day being slightly off or your day being slightly on accumulate.

[06:15]

When people spoke about a mind they call zazen mind occurring during the day or taking a walk or something, is that, would that be the case for somebody who doesn't do zazen or more likely the case for someone who does zazen? Oh, thank goodness. But I also know these kind of states of mind from the time when I wasn't settled.

[07:32]

I would say that knowing that leads one to be open to zazen, to be open to practicing. That knowing such states of mind that we identify as examples of zazen mind before we start to practice are probably part of what leads us to practice. However, then the question is do we notice them in a way that we develop them or bring wisdom to their development?

[08:32]

This may seem rather unimportant, this distinction, but it's extremely important, actually. It may seem that this distinction is somewhat unimportant, but in fact it is very important. Okay, someone else? Yes? So the question also appeared to us. So the question also came up for us whether there can be a zazen mind even though we are not engaged in Zen practice. Do other people have zazen mind? Did we have it before we started to practice? But one important point I found in the group was that you said that there is a difference between well-being and non-being.

[09:48]

The key point I want to point out from our group is that we were thinking about you saying there's a difference between well-being and non-being. And that Zazen mind has to do with the experience of non-being. Then we talked about how we experience this non-being. For example, as Gerald said, by being in the breath and letting go of everything else. And that the reference point of non-being is not whether I feel well or not. And that led us to the theme of acceptance and what acceptance really means.

[11:20]

And we talked about different experiences of accepting our experience. Other people are to add. Okay. Well, there's lots of problems with my distinction between well-being and non-being, though I make the distinction fairly often. But in what's been said so far, there's lots that I ought to say about it, but I don't want to interrupt now. I'd like to have some other comments, and I'll see if I can respond altogether. to what's been brought up. Someone else. Patrick. In our group we also started asking ourselves what do we mean by Zazen Geist, Zazen Mind.

[12:47]

kind of we tried to approach it like what we had experienced. So we came and then we said, okay, we all agree that these aspects might define us and mine. And these aspects we came to were It has to do with letting go, like bodily and mentally, kind of relaxation, so that a kind of open space appears, or an open space develops or is there, And so that in this open space other things can appear and we notice them, whereas in non-Zazen mind we are so full of thinking that we do not notice these other things. And so in this open space we notice things, we can let them be and accept them, and we feel kind of connected.

[14:01]

And in non-Sazan minds we don't feel connected, we feel separate, and we are very full of ourselves and our thoughts and our thinking. And this kind of Sazan mind can exist during sitting Sazan, but also in other situations like in the middle life. in everyday mind. And it seems with practising and with sitting zazen regularly, zazen mind happens more often in everyday situations. That seems to be the experience of the people at home. Okay. German, please. We also started by saying, What does it actually mean for us when we talk about it?

[15:06]

What does it mean? And everyone carried something from their experience and so we came to say that there is the aspect of letting go, that then such an open space arises, in which you can allow other things, you can even notice and feel connected. And in contrast to that, in the everyday spirit you are so full of your own thoughts and with yourself that you notice a lot of things. And that this Sazen spirit can arise or arise both during Sazen as well as in the middle of everyday situations. Okay, thank you. Someone else? Yes, Atmar? I want to add to Gerd's quote.

[16:08]

There was also this idea that zazen is just a sort of training field or training territory where we can develop the zazen, and do we need that zazen posture to bring this mind into the daily activity, and is it just, can you reduce that to sort of observing mind, like to observe the breath, or just to figure out what difference it makes when we go with this, don't invite thoughts to tea, to be overwhelmed by the guest, or to just, or to at least notice the house is full of guests, and that's already a difference. But I think the Quran also makes it clear that zazen and getting up on the seat is not just a training field. There's more about zazen than just to train the mind to stay calm in daily consciousness or to be able to observe the press or to have this observing mind or background mind.

[17:19]

So that's what I want to add to our group. Oh, good. Deutsch, bitte. Also wir hatten auch nochmal zu der Gruppe Sazen-Geist, kann man das nur nennen, wenn wir in Sazen sitzen, oder ist Sazen vielleicht einfach nur so eine Art Trainingslager, wo wir einen Geist trainieren, den wir dann in that we can include in our daily activities. For example, in observing the spirit, in observing the breath, we need zazen to often think about breathing during the day or to notice that there is a lot of thinking. Okay, thanks. Someone else? Yes, Peter? What I'm interested in and what also came up in our group was not so much the question what distinguishes Zazen mind from usual mind,

[18:49]

from all the everyday mind, but rather from mental states outside of sasen, connected with mindfulness, connected with maybe even self-forgottenness, and so on. And also from physical connection with breath. I don't understand, are you talking about what the Sazan spirit distinguishes from it? No, I don't think so. I think there are also, outside of the Sazan, there are spiritual conditions that are shaped by mindfulness, by connection with the Father, and by a kind of self-forgottenness. But we came up with that also outside of zazen there are states of mind that are connected with or imply mindfulness and connection with the breath and physical awareness or something.

[20:04]

And yeah, selflessness. You mean perhaps like working with Boleslawski or Stanislavski's method in the theater? And I think in zazen there is a particular quality that distinguishes that from the other. And I think in zazen there is a particular quality that distinguishes that from the other. And that seems to be a quality that's seemingly in contrast to the presence that's there on the one hand? That's more of a mood, a mood of something similar to... We found pictures of, what do I know, a rock wall that disappears a little in the fog, or the moon that is embedded in the fog a little.

[21:07]

But it's more a kind of mood that we describe through images like a cliff that disappears in the fog or the moon that's partly covered by fog. Good. Okay, thanks. Someone else? Yes. I would like to add to that, but I don't know if it's the same. And regarding the qualities of this room that has already been discussed. I would like to add something, but I'm not so sure whether this is not the same thing, talking about the qualities of the space. We talked about the space having more of a plasticity or more of a depth to it.

[22:24]

And phenomena seem to become more voluminous and thicker. And at the same time the body is more sensitive, there is more sensation. Is this in Buddhism forbidden? I think so. And I meant this as a joke, but I would say if that wasn't forbidden in Buddhism, I'd say that things have more being and they are looking at me more intensely, or like little personalities that are looking at me.

[23:28]

That's what Dogen says. He says almost exactly the same thing. I mean, I'm sorry you weren't the first. Maybe Dogen says forbidden things. Once he said them, they're no longer forbidden. You know, if I ever have to, you know, open a used car lot to sell Buddhism, I'm going to invite you all to be my salespeople. Yeah, I've got a thousand-year-old Buddhism here. It's for sale, you know. Yeah. We'd like to hear Lona say something about it.

[24:33]

You know, she's got a new model right here. Okay, someone else. Yes. It's also really when we describe the qualities of different minds, it was one thing is when you sort of fall out of Zazen mind, you feel the difference quite clearly. During Zazen. or after Zazen sometimes, you feel the difference is felt better. What we agreed on was more sequential, a usual mind, nearly, hardly more than two things at a time, we're not able to be at our present, and sort of flatter. Our usual mind is flatter and more sequential, yeah. Yeah, and different viscosity also.

[25:38]

You know, the Azen mind is more, it's sort of darker, a little darker and more viscous. And things appear out of darkness, so to say. But we also found that similar states and spaces also occurred in everyday life, of course. We had some funny examples like music texts appearing and telling you... Music, what? Texts of music. Like a song stuck in your head. Earworms. Yeah, but the earworms telling you something, a message. Oh. For example... Have you considered hospitalization? I'm just kidding. It's fine. You know, you all, after all these years where I've talked, speaking English together, you all know English so well, it's sort of sometimes, should we translate? But yes, please. Deutsch bitte. Of course, we have discussed the properties and qualities of different spirits.

[26:39]

One example was, for example, when you fall out of the Sazan spirit or slip out of the Sazan or after the Sazan, that it is more difficult for the old spirit or the usual spirit to keep two things together, at least one or two things together, but that it is more sequential, that things appear one after the other. that the viscosity is also different and also a little bit the temperature, so that the Sarsenian spirit is viscous, that is, viscous and also darker, that is, the things appear in the darkness, and that of course his spirit-like states also appear outside of the sense of sight. For example, we have an earring and the music, so to speak, is one thing, but the text of the music, so to speak, tells you something, gives you an impression of what is happening right now. Okay. Yes? My question reaches into a territory of a training camp.

[27:49]

The everyday spirit or the ordinary spirit I experience as very conditioned. I experienced everyday mind or usual mind as being very conditioned. And then first I had the impression that Zazen mind is not conditioned at all. But then I had doubts about that and was wondering whether Zazen mind is not also, whether we are not also conditioning it. You mean, is it already conditioned or are we conditioning it by how we practice?

[28:52]

Yes, then I thought, yes, we condition, we condition, so we Okay. Oh, I thought you understood. Sort of I understood, yes. Well, then, no, I thought that we are conditioning it. We are making a conditioning. Okay, yeah. But then I thought, no, actually we are just establishing a context while Zazen mind is still unconditioned. I'm swimming in the midst of that and now I'm asking, is it conditioned or is it not conditioned? Okay. Okay. So I have a little life preserver here I can throw you or not.

[30:03]

No life preserver yet. Anyone else want to say something? I can add to what Catherine said about criteria of Zazen and also a little bit in the direction of what Gunther Kama, we found in the Zazen line, it's kind of more fluid than the conditioned and often quite automatic tendencies in the so-called Evgen line.

[31:06]

And that being conditioned and having preselections which are often not conscious and following lines often leads to the self-awareness of being a victim of what happens, things happen to you, something like that. Whereas in the Southern mind there is sometimes that feeling of really taking part or being part of what appears, what comes up. and that this what comes up is not in the same way identity building or binding than it is in everyday life, but it's just something that appears and disappears again, and the kind of... the thing of...

[32:08]

freedom or geth that is created with zazen mind is not so strong or not so present in everything and so like this then has different a different branch, like someone mentioned before, the difference between something is outside and the experience is inside, you know, separation is that inner-outer, that distinction for the way is that and other. Things that can't come together in a sequential everyday mind, they stand next to each other or inside each other, whatever. In Zazen, we can't appear together without excluding each other. Yes, in our group we have found that the Satsang spirit appears to be more fluid, more formed.

[33:18]

In contrast to the so-called everyday spirit, which can often be conditioned and never consciously pre-selected or pre-selected, and can be determined, so that the feeling often arises that the victims of a situation, things happen, And in the Swaziland spirit there is sometimes the feeling that you can really see the things, or feel them, or participate in them when they arise, and also assimilate. that they are so binding to us, or that they are our ways of identity. This means that this room of freedom, this room of silence and tranquillity remains, in which they can disappear again. Okay. We have... Yes?

[34:27]

Yes. We talked about this at the very end, that Why is it so difficult? We saw that sitting and sitting influence each other, and the different... [...] sitting and sitting influence each other Isn't the other thing guys, the back to home. Okay. So we talked about, at the end of our discussion, about there is a connection between satsang mind and mindfulness and these practices.

[35:29]

And then we were wondering why it is so difficult to... maintain a Zazen mind in the closest interpersonal relationships we are in. Yeah, like with your spouse, you mean. If you have a spouse. Yeah, I've noticed that that's the case. Someone says, Buddha says, I couldn't have made it if I was married. Someone says, the Buddha said, I would never have made it if I hadn't been married. It may be apocryphal, but... Apocryphal? You translated it this morning. Well, what did you translate this morning? He lived separately, I think. Apocryphal means in English it's told as if it's true but it's clearly not true.

[36:38]

Like the Buddha spoke all these sutras. Not true, but it's presented as the truth. Now, my impression, let me say that for those of you who speak English fluently, my feeling is it's better for the group if you can do it, speak German first and then English. But if you really want to express yourself in English first, that's okay with me, but it feels better to me if it's in German first and then you tell me in English.

[37:40]

I feel the overall attention is stabler when it's in German first. But, you know, whatever. Christa? Sorry, but now I always need to know whether I'm translating or are you translating? Okay, yeah. I would like to add to our group that for us almost opposing Zazen experiences came up. So one person spoke about being able to release into stillness and calmness and let go of everything that has happened throughout the day?

[38:52]

In zazen or just any old time? In zazen. And another person said it's the other way around. For her in zazen it really starts. starts some kind of emotion. Emotions start, yeah. Thinking, emotions. And this also turned out to be a way of meeting. And it became clear that it was about being able to also meet oneself there.

[40:13]

Yeah. Okay. It's good to know there's one group against us. What? It's good to know there's one group against Zazen. Yeah, I'm exaggerating. Okay, someone else? You were, I think, the translator's hand was up. Yes. Will you translate? No, it's all right. Another difference that was important for me was that I made the experience, because Roshi also asked how it is with the thoughts, how do you think in the sasana spirit in contrast to the ordinary spirit, and there I made the experience I worked on a problem mentally and before I sat down, I tried to change the circumstances and find a solution.

[41:13]

The basic concept was that I am fixed, I am given, so to speak, and now I have to change the circumstances to solve the problem. When I sat in Sazan, I noticed that it was the other way around, that suddenly it became clear that the circumstances or this problem had somehow transformed into situational forces. And the circumstances changed me and suddenly made me a person who was able to be good in this situation. The situation changed me and let me mature so that the problem disappeared as a problem. And I found that very interesting. The everyday spirit was about finding a solution. And in the sasana spirit it was about opening up and letting the situation affect me and let me change.

[42:13]

And so I'm really matured. So that was impressive for me. For me, one important distinction was that I noticed, because you also talked about observing the thoughts in sadhana, I noticed that I was trying to solve a problem. And I tried to solve that before sitting zazen by changing the circumstances. I had the concept of, well, I'm a given person, and now I'm going out there to change the circumstances so that there's a solution for the problem. And when I sat down, I noticed that that shifted. And what happened was that the problem changed into situational forces almost and things that affected me or that had effect within the situation and I noticed that the situation changed me and through exposing myself to the situation

[43:29]

I actually changed and the situation turned me into a person that was able to be in that situation competently almost. So I transformed by exposing myself to the things that had effect in the situation. And the problem as a problem disappeared. So the solution is not important, but the I don't feel it as a problem anymore. So, the distinction I make is that in usual mind I tend to want to change something and act as a person, act from a central understanding of myself. While in zazen mind it's much more about opening up to the situation. Did I hear you say that you had three positions? Your usual way of thinking, and then you tried to imagine a situation where you could solve it by reconstituting it, and then in addition you did zazen?

[44:37]

Or it's just you thought of it from your usual way of thinking and then you did zazen, and the situation changed? Second. Yeah, okay. Yes, did I understand that correctly? Either that you had three different states, so once that you thought about a problem and then tried to solve it and that you then sat down and that in the sasen it dissolved or that there was simply... Yeah, the reason I brought it up is that there are lots of ways out there in the world like neural and linguistic training and things like that where you try to change your way of looking at things in order to get a perspective that you can't get from your usual way of thinking.

[45:41]

And that sometimes is similar to Zazen and often in fundamental ways different than Zazen. The reason why I bring this up is because there are so many methods, such as NLP, neurolinguistic programming, where you try to take a different perspective towards what you are thinking about. In many respects it is similar to Sazen, but in a fundamental way it is looking for a new perspective, which is completely different from Sazen. But I understand what you said, so thank you. Okay. Someone else before I sort of launch into the sea in which you're swimming? Yes, Mona? Oh, Marlene? Yes. I just came up with something that is maybe a description for how I experience my way of distinguishing Zazen mind from usual mind or everyday mind.

[47:05]

I experience often during the day as if there was a kind of fever attack. It feels psychologically and physically like a fever attack. You mean a temperature or Yeah, so... By fever, what do you mean? So what do you mean by fever? Yeah, like when a child suddenly has a fever and lies in bed or sits at the table or just... Just glows? What? If it glows. Glows? Yeah, okay. She's describing it like a child who has a fever and does their everyday things in a kind of different state.

[48:36]

Okay. Okay. You would have experience with that. Yeah. There was something I wanted to say, but I don't think I can really express it this way. It kind of is disrupted. I'm sorry I interrupted you by asking you what you meant by fever. Peace. I don't know if you people can recall what it's like to have a fever.

[49:54]

When there's no fever, there's just no fever. But when you have a fever, maybe you know what I'm talking about. And how does that relate to zazen mind? Nothing. And during zazen do you have this feeling too? But it's also... I'm trying to remember. It changes. It's not what it is now, but what... It's wandering. Yes, during zazen it's even strongest, but it's also something that shifts and changes.

[51:12]

It's not something that is this way, but it's just, yeah, it's changing. Is it pleasant or unpleasant? Sometimes it's very unpleasant. You want to get rid of it. Sometimes it's very unpleasant and you want to get rid of it as if not wanting to be sick anymore. And sometimes it's just easy. Thanks. Okay. Okay. Now, what you've said, and I'd like to... In hearing what you've said, I can see that I could speak about it in some sort of organized way.

[52:19]

But I can't do it without some thoughts, so I'll just start out and say some things. First of all is the idea of the two truths. The basic idea is that when you recognize there's a difference between zazen mind and your usual mind, eventually, through the development of zazen mind, you conclude that this is the truer way of knowing the world than the conventional mind.

[53:22]

Then you know your usual everyday mind as a conventional mind, which is different than knowing it as reality. Now, probably find various ways to say that during the next days. Okay. So, Most of us seem to notice some difference and significant differences between our usual way of mind and our zazen mind. Now, is this conditioned or unconditioned?

[54:23]

Well, it's... There's certain embodied conditioning. For instance, if you're doing Zazen and there's a large explosion outside or some unusual noise, You may not move. You may not flick a muscle. And that's a change in conditioning because you might normally jump or something. But you'd probably know, you'd probably Almost jump, but you prevent yourself from jumping.

[55:39]

So the conditioning, there's a certain amount of conditioning that's still there. So there's no way, as long as you're alive in a particular person, there isn't a certain amount of conditioning. And there needs to be, but the emphasis is different. Now, if I tried to look for a definition of... I've been trying to find ways to define these things for a long time. I find it almost useless to use definitions built upon, in Sanskrit or Pali words, which are built upon conceptions, distinctions we don't have in our culture.

[56:42]

So I'm trying to find words, terms, words that come from our culture. Now, of course, If we are making distinctions about Zazen mind from our culture, we're actually changing Zazen mind. If you think, for instance, that Zazen mind is some kind of pure original mind that's true in all cultures for all beings, then you have a kind of belief that can't be true. But it may be very close to something like an original mind that's true independent of any culture.

[57:47]

Okay. So the definition I would try, I mean, you know, I'm always trying to define awareness and consciousness. But let me try another way of defining it. Okay. Consciousness is defined through the contents of consciousness.

[59:03]

Or the contents of mind. Awareness is defined through the field of mind. Okay. Now, let's just try that on as a definition. Now, again, let's use something we all know, waking up. We're usually more conscious waking up than we are going to sleep. So waking up. I would say that maybe we could say that Waking up, there are various concepts. I've got to do this today, etc. But they're not stuck together. So there's more space. These things float a bit in some kind of spatial mind. Float.

[60:26]

Float? Treiben. Treiben, ja. Ja, herumtreiben. Okay. Die treiben so ein bisschen in einer Art räumlichen Geist herum. Okay. Zazen mind has similarities. Der Zazen geist hat da Ähnlichkeiten. You are kind of like letting go of the web of concepts. And there's more space between them. And things that would be edited out of consciousness tend to float into the space, appear, float. Okay. Okay, now let's say that's true. Okay, now what does Buddhist practice consist of?

[61:32]

It consists of, in a way, conditioning that spatial mind. Or we could put it another way, un- further developing the unconditioning of that mind. Let's say that once you've begun to experience zazen mind, and the tradition is no teaching for the first two years, So for two years you just have regular daily experience of Zazen Lant. Then we could say then the teaching starts being added to this. And I think Nagarjuna or someone says motor energy

[62:34]

This whole idea of energy, effort, intention, vitality, we don't have any word for. We don't have a word for it. Energy isn't quite right. It's something maybe closest to aliveness and vitality. An essential aspect in almost all the Abhidharma lists, one of the items is usually energy or effort. Yeah, but we don't have, you know, energy isn't right. Anyway, alive, anyway. So, in one translation I saw, it's called motor energy. And it says motor energy and the feet are blind unless there's prajna.

[63:52]

The feet. The feet. Those, okay. In other words, what it means to say is Zazen is blind unless there's wisdom. Zazen all by itself won't get you to emptiness. Okay, if you think zazen all by itself will get you to emptiness, that then again is equivalent to believing in God. It's like you can't produce English or German overnight. It takes lots of people a lot of time to create the language we speak. It's taken, you know, 2,500 years now to develop the language of Buddhism, of Dharma, to educate this Zazen experience. Okay, so let me give you a simple example.

[65:21]

You do Zazen and you try to count to ten. Very often you only get to one. And I call it counting to one. One, and then you start thinking. One, and then you start thinking. One, two. Now, we tend to think that's because our thinking is so interesting. That's maybe partly the case. But often our thinking isn't very interesting at all.

[66:22]

You wouldn't want to tell anybody what you're thinking about. If you could have a little screen beside you which had read out what you're thinking about, you wouldn't want anyone to read it. It might not be appropriate sometimes, but mostly it'd just be boring. Otmar was speaking to Sophia yesterday or the other day and saying how good or how quickly she could translate back and forth between German and English. Ottmar told me, he asked her, is she going to be ready soon to translate for me? And I guess she told him, no, no, that would be too boring. But it's not just because Our thoughts are so interesting.

[67:35]

It's as I've often said, we establish our identity and our continuity in our thoughts. But it's also because consciousness knows how to count. Awareness doesn't know how to count. So simply awareness doesn't have the structure to know how to count. So when you are counting your breath during Zazen, you're not only weaving mind and body together by bringing attention to your breath, You're also teaching this, let's call it, body-mind, which doesn't know how to count. Only consciousness knows how to count. You're teaching it how to count.

[68:46]

Now, does that mean you're injecting consciousness into awareness? If we imagine they're two different things. A little bit. But more... more basically or fundamentally, we're finding ways to give structure to awareness, which will be different than structured consciousness. Which is different than structured consciousness. So a non-interfering observing mind is a structure you have to learn.

[69:49]

But it's a structure that functions in awareness, not particularly in consciousness. So through practice you're actually teaching awareness something. And overall, since Nagarjuna and since Mahayana Buddhism, You are teaching, you're trying to lead awareness to emptiness. You're trying to get by repeatedly doing zazen and bringing prajna or wisdom into your thinking and practice. You're using the mind of awareness or the mind of zazen and wisdom to bring yourself into the two truths.

[70:55]

To begin to notice the emptiness of objects. That there's no externality. No, I spoke about that in Rastenberg. But I haven't spoken, I don't think I've spoken about no externality here, have I? Okay. So the combination of zazen and wisdom leads you to begin observing objects differently.

[72:02]

And classically and simply you learn to observe objects in their impermanence first of all and their implied permanence, second of all. You begin to notice things are activities, not entities. And you have to keep reminding yourself of it. And you remind yourself by doing zazen and you remind yourself by bringing wisdom phrases and so forth to your activity. And you can have an insight into it all at once. But you can't transform your embodiment all at once. For instance, I suggest you from now on never use the word now again.

[73:20]

Okay, use the concept of now. Verwende das Konzept jetzt. It's like I suggest you use treeing instead of tree. Das ist so, wie ich auch vorschlage, dass du das Wort oder das Konzept von Bäumen benutzt statt das Konzept Baum. Because you need to find ways to introduce into your, the way you speak to yourself as well as speak to others, wisdom. To say tree is illusory. To say treeing is wisdom. Yeah, and you have to break the habit of seeing things as permanent.

[74:38]

Now, you have to also see things as relatively permanent or you can't function. Okay. Now, the question Annetta brought up and others have too. What about experiences that are like Zazen mind but aren't because of Zazen? You brought that up. Well, of course. I mean, everything that's available to us to any one person is to some extent available to every person. But is it a little flicker of a moment that you sometimes feel? Or is it something you can open up and find the whole way you look at things? Now, let me make a distinction between a wisdom mind and enlightenment.

[75:50]

Enlightenment is the seeing into the situation, to see things as they actually are, or to see an aspect of things the way they actually are, which shifts your whole way of seeing. We all have various kinds of enlightenment experiences. But usually, unless you're practicing, an enlightenment experience doesn't shift the whole way you look at things. And even, you know, because your habit energy is too strong. So you, in a way, are altering, weakening your habit energy by doing zazen. A wisdom mind is a mind that embodies wisdom, much of which is rooted in enlightenment.

[77:27]

But not rooted in your enlightenment experience necessarily. You might have an enlightenment experience. But the wisdom of Buddhism is rooted in many people's enlightenment experience developed over centuries. Now, practice usually goes forward faster if you've had enlightenment experiences.

[78:31]

But still, even a very enlightened person with deep enlightenment experiences, who is a Buddhist, is still drawing on the enlightenment experiences built into the wisdom of the teachings. But even if you had very little enlightenment experiences, but you can feel the truth of it, you also can transform your life through the wisdom built into Buddhism. Sorry, I didn't get the last part. Built into Buddhism. The wisdom built into Buddhism. Okay, now... An example I often use is I think poets and painters, at least good poets and painters, are working from an enlightenment experience.

[79:37]

Which in the West would have very little to do with Buddhism. But they usually feel to come back and their way of staying in contact with this enlightenment experience is to do their art. They paint their way toward this enlightenment experience in each painting. A certain kind of spatial or auric experience, which they then bring into their painting. And in poets, certain phrases and words shine, and that shine extends to the rest of the poem. That has something to do with enlightenment, has something to do with Zazen mind, but very little to do with Buddhism.

[80:52]

And if you do... Do you understand that? If you do have... experiences that lead you to Buddhism or that are prior to your practice, usually you can't really open those up or develop them in the way that prajna does. nor usually can you do it on your own. That's why there's three treasures. To just know the Dharma, but then on your own, you just don't have your self-referencing tendency makes it very difficult to practice even with enlightenment.

[82:13]

What makes it really difficult too? Your self-referencing experience, tendency. Really difficult to open up or develop this experience. It usually gets caught by concepts or something. So in general it's easier to understand another person than it is to understand yourself. Normalerweise ist es leichter, einen anderen Menschen zu verstehen als dich selbst. Also die Sangha und der Lehrer, das schafft eine Situation, die es dir gestattet, deine Zazen-Erfahrung zu öffnen. I'm convinced there was a historical person that was called the Buddha.

[83:35]

I don't know the details of his life. The mythology of Buddhism has created seven Buddhas before Buddhas and an infinite number of Buddhas, so we don't say he's really the first. But without getting involved with the seven Buddhas before Buddha, which we chant in the morning, My own sense of the Buddha's actual life is that he realized his understanding and enlightenment didn't just happen under the Bodhi tree all of a sudden. It happened through the relationship of other people he practiced with.

[84:50]

We didn't necessarily agree with, but other people he practiced with. And then the practice he joined with Some he'd practiced with earlier. After his enlightened experience, he began practicing with the ones he'd practiced with before. And then... No, sorry, I didn't get the first part. Some of the people he practiced with first, he then... After his enlightenment experience, they became his disciples. But I'm convinced that the Buddha would have found his practice with his disciples, not that he's just teaching them, but that he's developing his own understanding through practicing with them. And then he gathered students, not because he wanted to share his understanding with people,

[85:56]

I mean, that has to be part of it. But I would say more fundamentally because he developed his understanding through practicing with people. As I'm doing with you. And And because of his understanding of that, the people he practiced with became the Sangha, not just students. They became the Sangha. That's different than just students. Okay. So, again, I guess without going, forgetting about dinner, without, because we're not going to forget about dinner, I'll just say that Buddhism is a language rooted in enlightenment and the difference between Zazen mind and ordinary mind

[87:35]

But it's developed through... Through a particular language it's been developed... Anyway, I've said it enough. I can't find more ways to say it. And it's clear that Buddhism has had different directions and different schools and it keeps being brought back together but it's brought back together not by the Zazen experience but by the wisdom rooted in the Zazen experience. So now tomorrow I should try to... I'll try to talk about the things I'd like to talk about now, but I won't. What do you understand by this simple distinction that I made earlier today in Teisho?

[88:56]

Between noticing in Zazen the mind of intention and the mind of discursive thinking. Now, the mind of discursive thinking in zazen is not the same as the mind of discursive thinking in usual consciousness. Der Geist des diskursiven Denkens im Zazen ist nicht derselbe wie der Geist des diskursiven Denkens im gewöhnlichen Bewusstsein. But we wouldn't say the mind of discursive thinking in Zazen is Zazen mind. Aber wir würden nicht sagen, dass der Geist des diskursiven Denkens im Zazen der Zazengeist ist. It's the development of the mind that doesn't invite your thoughts to tea is the direction in which Zazen develops the mind.

[90:04]

Now, if you just sit down and do discursive thinking, that's going to change your life. You'll probably make better decisions at work, etc. Or your life. But that's not Zazen mind. Zazen mind is to develop that mind that appears during Zazen in a particular way. Is that said clearly enough? And, as I said yesterday, there's a culture that goes along with this teaching in every country. We also have to now extract Buddhism from the culture we received it from and create our own Buddhist culture. And I spoke about my frustration this morning because I wanted to say that even for me who is really familiar with this koan

[91:14]

And even to the sense of typesetting it, virtually. Still, I look at the koan and I'm frustrated. Yeah, it's like trying to read a poem when you're not in the mood for reading a poem. How do you get in the mood to read the poem? Well, I can feel something in the koan and I can't reach it. And I don't want to reach what I've usually reached in the koan. I want some discovery here. But that frustration is part of the way koans are designed. They're ready to let you in only when you're ready to be let in.

[92:36]

Okay, so let's sit for a moment or two. By the way, this goes up, whoever changes the cushioned. When you redo the... Are we moving these or we have a new one up? Moving them. These will stay here now, so the bell doesn't get moved. Okay, good.

[93:26]

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