which is the observance of emotions. Anger and so forth. So let's leave that for another time. I meant for us to do something else this afternoon. I carried away in the second foundation of mindfulness. Your non-graspable feeling led me astray. Yes. So let's take a break. Yeah, for half an hour. Then we'll figure out what to do. Sometime before dinner. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ist es nicht schön und lustig zu entdecken, wie wir eigentlich funktionieren?

[01:22]

Obvious stuff, when you look carefully. Dieses offensichtliche Zeug und Materie, wenn man nur genau schaut. Aber entschuldigt, wir haben ja eine Pause. We don't have so much time. I think dinner is at 6.30, right?

[02:25]

Didn't we decide 6.30? But if it's 7, let me know. I think it's not decided yet. As far as I know, you decided. At lunch I said 6.30. Yes. Okay. And that's still the case? That's what you said, right? Okay, so we don't have so much time. We can do it seven o'clock. Well, yeah, but they said get the food ready. We should... Well, yeah, but just a minute. I think it's good that it's 6.30. We stay with 6.30. Yeah, that's okay. I see. Oh, okay. No, but we have... Can you come? Christina.

[03:30]

Christiane can come back. So let me think aloud here. What I wanted to do, but I don't think we have much time and I think we're tired. I was kind of hoping to have some discussion, the group to have some discussion this afternoon. But I think the energy isn't there. So let's eat at 6.30. Thank you. But I think before we have some discussion, it's good to have a feeling for these foundations of mindfulness, as part of our discussion, before we go into this phrase, that all dharmas are free of self.

[04:44]

I'm trying to... give you the background that allows you to understand such a sentence. Like I'd like you, if I said, if someone said, the sun coming through the window was so intense I almost melted. Or if I said the rain was solid between here and the dining room, you can feel what that means. The rain is solid between here and the dining room.

[05:46]

But if I say all selves are All dharmas are free of self. You don't have the same experience of that sentence like it's solid rain between here and the diagram. But I'd like you to be able to be in the middle of that sentence. All dharmas are free of self. With as much vividness as you can feel the sun through the window, I nearly melt it. So I'm trying to get to that point. Together. Gemeinsam.

[06:50]

Now, does somebody have something you want to bring up, if you have a little time? Because I don't think I should start the third foundation of mindfulness until tomorrow. So you can sleep on the first two foundations. That's quite a bit, these first two foundations. It would be good if we tried to practice them between now and tomorrow. And between now and when we die. To really feel the solidity of the bodyfulness of the body and the subtlety of presence free of likes and dislikes.

[07:58]

Somebody have something? Yes. How can we practice with this second foundation of mindfulness? For the first foundation of mindfulness, we got very nice examples from you. I'm glad they were nice. Yeah. But I ask myself which ways exist, how can I practice with the second foundation of mindfulness? I think you bring mindfulness,

[09:04]

which means bring, in this case noticing, to when, let's say, you take a walk. to how much your observation, your perceptions, are influenced by what you like and dislike. Or when you talk to another person. How much your conversation is influenced by whether you like the person or you dislike the person. Can you be present in a conversation with a person that you dislike In virtually the same way as the presence with a person that you like.

[10:18]

Of course, with a person you like, the conversation evolves differently than with a person you don't have much connection with. But your presence can be nearly the same. So you notice, am I able to stand here with this person without a feeling of like and dislike? You begin to see a topography of your daily activity. You take an inventory. For example, you can do an inventory What's a useful inventory to take? What percentage of your thoughts are really about other people? or involved or something about other people.

[11:39]

You may think it's not very big. But I bet it's very close to at least 90%. You think this and you think what another person would think or what your parents thought or what, you know, something. So you tag your thoughts. Like you might tag the deer population. To study how many deer are in the forest here. And how many come from some other forest. So you tag your thoughts. That one's about a person. That one's about a mosquito. I don't dare kill anything here.

[12:51]

Remember what happened last year? It was actually by mistake, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't have done it. Anyway, so you tag your thoughts and begin to notice when they return. And likewise, you can tag your thoughts with, oh, that's a like thought or that's a dislike thought. That's an indifferent thought. That's a thought neither in the category of likes nor dislikes. It's a kind of landscape. And then you begin to notice the different feeling you have when there's no likes or dislikes.

[13:56]

We know the feeling when there's like or dislike. But begin to know the feeling of neither like nor dislike. And it's useful actually to breathe into each feeling. You like the sound of the bell. And you breathe the sound. And you connect your observation of it with a breath. You find some way like that. I don't know if any of those examples help, but... It's useful to have a sense of clear comprehension.

[15:03]

Remember the cleaning the bowls. There's a clear comprehension of each thing. I'm not only holding this stick. I have a clear comprehension of holding the stick. And I can try to work with that in various ways. As I have a clear comprehension of the stick, I can join that clear comprehension to a breath.

[16:04]

Or I can turn and look at. And I can have a clear comprehension of turning and looking at Eric. And I can have a feeling of like or dislike. But when I look at Eric, that's not possible. So I have a clear comprehension of Eric without liking or disliking. I can have a clear comprehension of a wonderful presence. And I'm not just being nice. I can look at Paul or And when you bring to each moment a clear comprehension, you begin to feel clarity spreading. Can you feel the sense of bringing clear comprehension to each thing?

[17:20]

Yeah, it may sound a little silly, perhaps. But at dinner time, you can bring a clear comprehension to each thing. to the knife and fork and the plate and the food and so forth. And what's interesting about formality like a formal way of eating With a lot of different spoons and forks and so forth. You have to bring clear comprehension to each thing. Which fork do you use, etc. And I told some of you already what Marie-Louise has said she's going to do when the baby gets older.

[18:32]

Whenever it's dinner time or meal time, she's going to put a screen around me so the baby doesn't learn bad table manners. I don't know if I like these remarks. At least I can say, don't put a screen around me, I'll eat behind a newspaper. But in Zen, the way we eat with Oriyoki, to eat that way requires clear comprehension. So you can see that there's a certain... way in which clear comprehension is built into things.

[19:36]

But you can do it as a practice. And every time you do it, you kind of make a field of clear comprehension. And believe it or not, this is the emissary of the Dharmakaya. Emissary, the messenger, the representative. Yeah, because as you develop a clear... a field of clear comprehension, this is a kind of emissary messenger of the Dharmakaya. I don't want to explain that. That would be another seminar. But in that field of clear comprehension you can clearly feel the sense of a like or dislike.

[20:46]

Okay. Now when you're practicing mindfulness, you're establishing a field of mind that is That's actually rooted in the subtle body. It's free of likes and dislikes. It's just accepting. So now I'm into the third body. Finding myself now in the third foundation of mindfulness.

[21:56]

Take anger. It's one of the easiest examples. I see you're feeling angry. The practice of mindfulness is to just notice that you're angry. You may like being angry. I really like being angry and this person deserves my anger. Or you might dislike being angry. I'm so ashamed I get angry at Sophia. But still, you can just observe it. You can observe your anger. You can observe your like or dislike of the anger.

[23:01]

You can observe the anger is always changing. Now I'm getting more angry. This is actually a complex event. Because one part of your mind is not involved. Another part of your mind is quite involved. You're angry and you like or dislike the anger. kind of observation cannot be made unless you're rooted in a kind of calmness. So we can develop a a deep ease.

[24:01]

And that's good, you know. But the fruits of it also are that we can begin to observe ourselves with clarity. Okay, and when you have this mindfulness that's accepting without criticizing, and you have a mind that's angry too, how does that work? It works because they're rooted in different, one is rooted in memory and associations, the other is rooted in the body. And so you can see it as a kind of octopus ink. You're in the clear water. And here's this octopus ink of anger spreading through the water. And you can, whoa, look at that stuff.

[25:12]

And you're all covered with black ink. Or you can kind of find yourself and the octopus ink recedes. Now if both these minds arose from associative... from the... fourth skandha, you couldn't experience them separately. Because one is arising and stabilized through the first foundation of mindfulness. It's arising from the body. Others arising from a mind rooted in thought and associations.

[26:26]

So you can experience them separately. And the mind of mindfulness is more stable and slowly permeates the mind of the octopus ink. So when you practice mindfulness, you're mixing two different kinds of minds together and moving toward more and more clear comprehension. Something like that. So I'm trying to, again, talk about this as a way you can See how it functions in you.

[27:27]

And you can see why the four foundations of mindfulness is a path. Introducing you to the sources of mind. And the functioning of mind. And the strengths and weaknesses of mind. Okay, sorry. Something else. Yeah. I adopted the practice to strengthen positive feelings and to let go of negative feelings. Yeah, good. That sounds good.

[28:29]

Now I am a little bit confused because this practice has been good for me but now I learn from you that positive and negative feelings are somehow equal. I try to translate it the same way as I translate you consecutively, because otherwise I get mixed up. That was the question? Yes, the question is in it. Positive feelings are more positive than negative feelings. That's true. And I felt like that you used the word let go. Because it's better to just let go of them rather than try to get rid of them. Yeah, try not to nourish them.

[30:04]

But positive feelings and negative feelings are usually both arising from consciousness and open you to all kinds of karmic associations. So it's better if your positive feeling is rooted in a kind of neither positive nor negative feeling. Now, we're talking about, as I think Peter and I talked earlier, the initial state of mind. We still have to discriminate to function in the world.

[31:11]

But your initial state of mind can be free of likes and dislikes. Your next state of mind can be, oh, I like that or I don't like that. But the initial state of mind is free. what your overall feeling is all day long. So the initial state of mind is very important. You bring to a situation the initial state of mind is very welcoming, open, etc. But at the next moment you might have to do something, shut down, change things or something. I don't know. I describe this too mechanically. But I think we have to find some way to notice

[32:18]

how we function. And that noticing opens us up to much greater subtlety. Something like that. Okay. There was a question. I have a question to practice and to different kinds of meditation, methods of meditation. Certain people have the experience and the ability to step outside their own body during meditation. And my question is, is this kind of experience and kind of meditation, is it useful for mindfulness practice or is it dangerous?

[33:49]

What do you mean by step outside their own body? It's like a travel, a journey outside of your body, like people who have these pre-death experiences I'll put it somehow in a simplistic way, like if the subtle body would be able to observe him or herself. From above or something? From above or something, yeah. Yeah. I think before one starts to meditate, and in the early stages of practicing meditation,

[35:17]

you sometimes feel, I'm just talking about what I've noticed and noticed with others, that in the early part of meditation, sometimes people have the experience of sitting here and being over here. Or being in bed and being up at the ceiling. is that most people after a while get so centered in their body through meditation, these experiences don't happen much. But there are some people who have a peculiar gift for this. That's not really... it's actually quite mysterious.

[36:34]

Now, shamanic practices emphasize developing this ability. But Zen practice doesn't emphasize it. But I do have a friend who is, you know, not a real close friend, but a pretty good friend. And he's a parapsychologist. and he has studied a few of such things and he has worked with a woman who he'll write down something on a piece of paper and then he'll put it up there on the B and then she knows how to go into a certain state and she can tell him what it says And she can do it fairly regularly.

[37:42]

Would you further that if somebody in your group would have visibility? Would I further it? Would I encourage it? I'd have to see how it affected them. For this woman it was a kind of curiosity. And I'd have to talk to my friend. We have a meeting once a year discussing these things. This year I couldn't go because I had a seminar like this instead. But I'm going to try to go next year. So I'll see him. I should ask him. But I think... that people have these abilities often discover them by accident and often give up doing it.

[38:56]

for a couple of reasons. One, it disturbs their relationships with other people. And it often leaves them feeling shaky inside or something. But if it wasn't disturbing, I think I wouldn't... I don't have any idea. One of the things that characterizes Zen practice and why our meditation practice is rather mapless Because it assumes, as I've often said, the evolution of consciousness. So I'm always open to what And I think we'd have to, in a particular case, say, well, this doesn't seem to be good for you.

[40:15]

What do you think? What's the problem? If I had this ability, I'd probably explore it. But in some precise sense like that, I don't have it. It depends. I think it depends also very much on the emotions which are connected with it and come up. And I think there's also the danger that it can become an addiction. And the attachment to that kind of experience would have a controversial effect.

[41:27]

I think that all that sounds right to me. But you have to make the decision on that kind of basis. Because there's a kind of intermediate world. which some people have more experience of than others. That one of the... one of the characteristics of Buddhism in general and Zen in specific, is from such experiences, we don't make theories. Because this happens, the world must be like that. We more take the view, I think, traditionally, If after 40 years I can say we, more, I think, would take the view that the world is such a

[42:33]

fundamentally a mystery, that is far beyond explanation, that some things we treat as anomalies, and don't build theories in that. So I know quite a lot of things from my own experience and having practiced with so many people that are pretty unusual. But for me they're in the category of the intermediate world. which I accept but don't try to explain. When I try to explain it, if I did try to explain it, then there keeps being things outside that explanation.

[44:03]

So I'd rather not try to rope in everything into one or some complex explanation. So in general, I just notice. And one of the mistakes when you practice is trying to map these teachings make all the teachings consistent. So scholars try to say, feeling in this teaching and feeling in this teaching are the same. It's the same word. It's the same Sanskrit word. But in the context of the dynamic of this teaching, it's different than the context of the dynamic of this teaching. Each teaching has its internal integrity. in your practice, but it doesn't have a theoretical integration with other teachings.

[45:30]

And that arises from a view that How we exist is fundamentally a mystery. Happily. So that's enough for now. Oh, it's 6.30, right on time. My goodness, you guys get me out there. Giving oneself over to the mystery.

[47:17]

Just as it is. What mind is that? Please tell me a word that has not yet been spoken. Not yet been thought of. Can it be approached? kann man sich dem annähern. It can't be avoided. Es kann nicht vermieden werden. Thank you very much for this afternoon.

[48:54]

Good to see the Griesler team is on duty. And how was the outstanding performance of your son at kindergarten yesterday? Well, he was a bee. A bee. Yeah, a bumblebee, a honeybee. A honeybee. That's what every mother thinks. Every mother thinks that her child is a honey. Well, the little children were the bees, and the big ones were the dinosaurs. And the big ones had to stomp. Oh, the bees. No, the little ones did a dance, a bee dance.

[50:56]

Really sweet. Who thought up this script? The kindergarten teacher. Who thought up this script? The kindergarten teacher. Actually, she's brought the script and we're all going to try it this afternoon. This room will be dinosaurs with bees. Actually, they could choose. Oh, they could choose. And Leopold choose to be a hunter. Julius, Julius choose to be a hunter. He's on the soft side. What a sweet boy. Yeah.

[52:00]

And what a team the Grieslers are. It used to be the Vienna Bande, the Vienna gang. Now it's the three musketeers with Michael. Can I be D'Artagnan? Oh, okay. Yeah. So maybe I could say something about some of the reasons I do zazen. I suppose I mostly do it just because I have faith in the practice. And it's my faith in the practice which allowed me to go through years making no attempt in zazen at all, just observing, observing whatever is there.

[53:18]

But you know, in another way I have some reasons. Yeah, one thing, it's hard to find words for it, but I would say that for me, zazen is characterized by a kind of round knowing. Round, yeah, or spherical or round. In contrast to my usual thinking, which I would call mind, something like rectangular knowing. And rectangular knowing, I find it tends to stay predictable.

[54:30]

You know, I know I can usually make things clearer with rectangular knowing. But it's different than round knowing. So... I'll try to give you some examples of what I mean.

[55:36]

But also there are, this sounds kind of strange, but well, first of all, it's not predictable. And my usual mind is quite predictable. But I don't just mean mind, I mean maybe the shape of my body. Or the shape of the body. Yeah. What do I mean by shape in a sense? Well, I feel some shape. I think each of us feels some shape of our body. You feel it from inside. There's a feel of the body from inside. And when you walk past... And through a door you can feel whether you're going to bump the door or not.

[56:53]

But that shape, that same feeling in zazen, for me is often, I don't know, various shapes. And it's only partially related to the my actual, my visible physical body. But it's not really predictable. I have some participation in it, but it's unpredictability is what I like. And there's also degrees of satisfaction. Degrees? Degrees? and kinds of satisfaction that there are just no words for in English or any language I know.

[58:16]

Actually, there are some words in English Buddhist literature in Japan, Japanese culture that have some relationship more than English would. But in general, this is not in categories that I know anything about, categories of satisfaction, kinds of satisfaction. I only know through practicing meditation. So that's another reason I sit. If I want to feel really satisfied, I don't know what word to use, if I sit... Now, if I want to say that there's a problem or a situation or something I want to get a look at, feeling for,

[59:31]

No matter how much I think about it in my usual mind, I usually can't get beyond what's predictable. But if I bring the topic into the round mind of Zazen, and I have some experience of maybe taking the topic And putting it on a table in a room of my mind.

[60:45]

I'm going to use architectural images, not just for the sake of Giorgio. But also I find them useful. I tend to think that way. So I put the topic on the table maybe in the living room. And then unfortunately during Zazen I spend the entire Zazen in the garden. So I go get the topic and bring it out in the garden and then I'm in the bedroom. But then something often pops up. If I have an actual architectural problem to solve, Which I quite often in my life have had such things.

[61:55]

You know, I'm not an architect. But I've studied architecture and I've designed some things, but I'm a real amateur. I don't have any professional skills. Ich habe Architektur studiert und ich habe sehr oft mit Architektur und Design zu tun gehabt, aber ich habe keine professionellen Fähigkeiten. So I have to trust my round mind instead of my professional skills. Also muss ich diesem runden Wissen vertrauen, diesem runden Kennen, statt meiner professionellen Fähigkeit. So over a period of days or weeks, every now and then, I bring this architectural problem into... the roundness of mind, almost always at some point the finished building or room appears. And once that happens, I know several things about it. I know the solution will work.

[63:14]

I know it will fit in the space available. I can see it very clearly and explore it inside and out. And I know it's a complete solution. Somebody else might have a different solution. But I know this solution is one of the possible complete solutions. So I don't have the, like in usual thinking, I think, well, this could be different, or this could be, no, this, and this, round the mind, it's complete. So in addition to this quality of roundness to the mind of meditation, at least for me, I find a quality of completeness. that whatever solution or ideas I come to are more complete than I can think.

[64:34]

And they usually feel sort of right. Okay, so saying that I'm I'm sussing out a teaching. It was a test. To suss out means to pull out all of the aspects of it. Thank you. Yes, okay, so there's this Mahayana teaching, say. Some Mahayana teaching. So I go, I sort of like, let's, let me try to speak about it as, again, as an architectural image.

[65:47]

So I go into this teaching, this Mahayana house. I walk around. Yeah, if it's okay. But then suddenly I feel the foundations of the Hinayana house underneath it. The earlier teaching. Sometimes I can feel an indigenous foundation or shamanic foundation beneath that. And as a quality of feeling right or accurate, I tend to trust it. I don't actually trust it that it's scholastically, academically or something like that, right.

[66:52]

But I trust it in terms of practice, I think it's right, probably accurate. Mm-hmm. So what's interesting is, you know, I start looking at the... I can pull the foundations of the Hinayana house up to above ground level. And it's a nice house. Yeah, I would like to... I wouldn't mind living there. I often do live there. But I notice that the house, it's nearly the same house, nearly the same foundations. But I notice this house, the Henayana house, opens to an interior courtyard.

[67:55]

But I notice that this Hinayana house opens up to an inner court or something. To a court. Court, okay. Ask Johannes Hof. Johannes Hof. Okay. Okay. Hof has lots of meanings, doesn't it? Okay. And the house is facing toward India. And it's facing toward the Buddha's birthplace. Now if I go back into the Mahayana house, I see it actually faces toward the outside and the sky. And it pays no attention to India. It's turned toward the sun or wherever it happens to be.

[69:03]

It's turned toward the sun or in the location it happens to be. Anyway, there's those kinds of differences. Yeah. Don't expect this to be too interesting to you. But often, when you look at a Mahayana teaching, you take away some of the verbiage. It's basically a Hinayana teaching. But if you look at how it opens up and so forth, it's somewhat different than the Hinayana teaching. Yeah, so that was a little riff on... this phrase, all dharmas are without self.

[70:15]

Now the Mahayana version of the same kind of statement, is the bodhisattva realizes the patient acquiescence patient consent to agreement to patient acceptance of dharmas which are nothing in themselves, dharmas which have not yet arisen and are nothing in themselves. That's a little more complicated than dharmas are without self. The Mahayana statement emphasizes the practice of this. The experience of this teaching.

[71:31]

And the Hinayana statement or Theravada statement emphasizes more the description of the practice. I think the Theravada or Hinayana statement is actually easier to understand. Yeah, that's okay. So this is just a little riff on the craft of practice. Probably irrelevant to you. But I just, to me, I just want to share with you my own feeling into the craft and art of practice.

[72:35]

And how, if you have enough experience, you can use your round mind of zazen to consolidate that experience or Open up that experience. Um diese Erfahrung zu festigen und auch sie zu öffnen. Okay. Ja. Ich habe eine Frage. Vorhin zu dem Architekturbeispiel, dass das Haus dann komplett auftaucht. Ich habe dieselbe Erfahrung gemacht, dass Do you translate yourself? Yes, I do. I had the same experience as you with some design problem and during something sometimes it pops up finished and it works actually and so I think that's quite tempting to you

[74:12]

satsang for this sometimes. And it's somehow, it's supposed that the attitude of using satsang, doing satsang without any attempt, how do you say in English? Without trying to attain something? Yeah, yes. Without any gaining ideas, you would say? Just do something, watch what comes up, and without using it for something. Okay, there's weak rules and strong rules. Okay, there are weak rules and strong rules. I had an interesting discussion about this with the person who was the head monk at Tassajara at Crestone, this practice period.

[75:34]

Yeah, and he's... Forty or so. I don't know how old he is. And he's a medical doctor. And a therapist. And he's also head of a martial arts school. And he's quite strong and fierce type person. And very highly, extremely organized. Okay. Very, very fine person. So we have a rule in a monastic zendo, that this is the eating board.

[76:45]

This is an anecdote. I'm just telling this to you for the fun of it. Okay, so there's this eating board that you're not supposed to touch. And the platform is about this high. So, higher than that? I know. It's really difficult to come up there. People who aren't too tall. Or don't have arms trained on a wheelchair. Have a hard time pushing themselves up onto the cushion without touching the cushion. So the rule is you don't touch it, right?

[77:53]

And young men more or less can do that. Yeah, if you're 23 or 22 or something like that, 27. But 40-year-olds usually can't do it. Usually their weight distribution is a problem. And their arms simply aren't as strong. But this person, he just puts his hands down and fails into the air and lands on his cushion. You have to do it behind you. You have to push from here, like this position. And some of the young men in the sendo can do the same thing. So I told him he shouldn't do that. Because it's a strong rule that you don't touch it with your feet, but a weak rule that you don't touch it at all.

[79:09]

And why is it a weak rule? One of the reasons is, in fact, most human beings can't do it. So, If you're young and you want to do it, it's fine. But when you're his age, he should have some compassion for other people his age. So he should, even though he can do it, he should actually get up so he touches the the eating board. So he should break the weak rule but keep the strong rule. And the rule given to people in Zen to not close your eyes and so on. It is a weak rule.

[80:20]

But you tell all beginners, don't close your eyes. And you tell all beginners, don't think in Zazen and so forth. But if you do thousands of hours of Zazen, you're going to think sometimes. And if it's a skill, it's meant to be used. It's not all shamatha, it's also vipassana. And although I don't like the terms intuition or insights a little better, Insight arises from this round mind. And in fact, Zen is, Buddhism in general, is a process of very careful analysis. And that analysis of a teaching, for instance, or of a situation, is you don't want to do it just at your desk, you do it in zazen too.

[81:42]

So I think it's perfectly okay to use zazen to solve a problem. But that's not the main point. If that's the main way you develop your zazen, it's not very effective. So the main posture, mental posture of sasen is what I call uncorrected mind. You just profoundly leave your mind alone. As I said, for years I just, without any effort to do anything in Zazen, I mean 10 or 12 years, I never tried anything in Zazen.

[82:54]

I didn't try to count my breath, I didn't try to do anything. I just had brought the view, what's here? That's all. Of course I counted my breasts occasionally and so forth. But mostly I didn't. And I was just patient. And eventually most of the skills you're supposed to have appeared. But I let them appear. I didn't try to develop them. Or my effort to develop them was very much in the background.

[84:05]

I don't say this is the best way for everyone, but it's one good way to practice. But you need to have a lot of patience, And you need to have faith in practice itself. Ideally, the thought never occurs to you, is there a better way? As soon as you think that, your practice is finished. Is there some great teacher in a cave in the Himalayas? I never once had such a thought. I always feel whatever is here is here and I'm going to know nothing more than that. It's kind of stupid.

[85:19]

Somebody calls me up and says, there's this absolutely fantastic person who has all these mind powers and etc., And I say, enjoy your time with her. I have zero curiosity. Zero. Because I've decided I don't want to know anything that doesn't appear here. So that's a kind of weird position, but it's the position I took. Yes. Partly you answered already my question. Oh, thank you. The question is, what did you do with all the teachings which you got during all the years?

[86:41]

When I practice satsang, I somehow try to let them come up within me. Yeah, that's what I did too. I let them come up. I held them in view. But I didn't necessarily try to practice them. But this is an art, or again, an art, right? If you're a painter, do you How much do you just paint and how much do you try to do something? I like a statement of Picasso's. You start painting something. You just follow the brush. And pretty soon, near the end of the painting, you put a little red barn in over here. And you realize the red barn is what the painting is all about.

[88:05]

But you couldn't know that until you did the painting. So something like that I find, I hold a teaching present. And occasionally I remind myself of it. More explicitly remind myself. It's like you put something in the soup. But you just let it sit on the surface, you don't stir it in. Maybe you stir it in a little bit. But mostly you just sit there turning the heat up. Yeah, and heat is actually, someone asked me, actually when you begin to feel heat in various parts of the body, it's actually a sign of practice.

[89:16]

And when you come into a kind of solution for, say, like this architectural problem, there's often heat accompanies the solutions. So this practice, if you really make it as much a part of your life as sleep is a part of your life, you end up in a world with rather different categories A rather different shape than the world of your usual consciousness. Yes. But believe me, everything I've just said is wrong.

[90:22]

I mean, I can find something wrong with everything I've said. But it's like somebody trying to tell you how they paint. You have to do it. I might have a certain idea. feeling, attitude, and I do something the opposite. But even the opposite arose out of my attitude to not do it. So I can't really explain what I mean. I can just give you a sense. Yeah, go ahead. Thank you. Yes. How does this work in everyday? Because in everyday I... I try to build in some teachings, sometimes to work with a specific sentence.

[91:36]

In that direction. Yeah, I think that's good. It's also like in meditation, did you keep this in the background? Sometimes the foreground. But mostly the background. The default position is the background. The default position is uncorrected mind. But in your daily activity, you can bring practice more consciously, intentionally into your activity. Strangely, then zazen becomes a freedom from the effort of practice, and daily life becomes the context to make an effort in practice. I practice mindfulness much more in my ordinary activity than in my zazen.

[92:39]

I hold the five skandhas in view much more in my daily activity than I do in sasen. In sasen, I experience the five skandhas. In sasen, I experience the body parts. I don't have to keep reviewing it, though I do sometimes.

[93:16]

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