Of course I'd like you to share with me some of what you discuss, so someone, as I usually ask, so someone would start off. So I can learn something. Did you each appoint a spokesperson? No. Well, somebody has to nominate themselves then. I can start from group number three.

[01:13]

Okay. So I can help answer what we talked. So we talked about our daily practice and how difficult it is to find the daily structure and to make meditation in a regular way. And There was one interesting point was that also our culture and our daily life is so, in another way than here, that for example it's very difficult the children and their neighbors or in the working place that the other people are confronted with our practices or our lifestyle in this way, that it forced to something called social compromise.

[02:19]

to find a social compromise, what is possible to live and what is better to do it in a separate way. Yes, I understand. Maybe it's not necessary because you all were part of, maybe it shouldn't be, should we do it in German as well? Should we do it in German now? You'd like it in German? So, at least a synopsis in German. Let's make it a little shorter. We talked about the fact that daily practice gives us a lot of difficulties, especially to find regular meditation times, and that it also plays a role in that life with the Zen practice at home is exposed to various difficulties, also towards other family members and towards work, or towards the neighbors and the immediate environment, to show that it is at its limits and that it sometimes seems to make sense,

[03:24]

Next, number four. Now, you have to stop the occasion and let him translate. No, if you want to speak English, it's okay.

[04:31]

You can tell me in English too afterwards. Afterwards. All right, fine, okay. So finish in German and then tell me in English. Should I continue? Yeah, please continue in German and then tell me in English. Space or Raum. That's why the discussion took place, because accepting means at the same time evaluating. It's still dialectical, because that's my association.

[05:34]

And yes, those were the two aspects that interested me the most in the discussion. I'm sure there are several other views on this discussion. This is my point of view. Can you say a little in English what she said? Well, we had to meet a group, there were many therapists in it, I think that's three. So the discussion must have had four maybe. Yeah. Or maybe two ways of how to adapt feelings of guilt or how to... use your praxis in a way to fulfill your life acceptance was the key word actually and then the discussion went on that acceptance of course is very good in buddhist praxis or buddhist meditation however

[07:00]

And there was also a kind of concept which is space, which after the way you accept things and you don't give any values to things, you can experience a kind of space which comes afterwards, I think. And these were actually the two points I was most interested in our discussion. We talked, of course, about personal experience and that some are that in the morning, in the evening, it's very... I think it has to go with the setting. Okay. Thank you. I was in the same group and I would like to do a little bit more. One of us had the experience since she meditated or she is sitting down, she at least has the experience she comes to herself. She comes back to something which she calls herself. And I was asking her, do you feel that's liberation?

[08:03]

Is that what we call freedom or liberation? When the moment comes where you really feel yourself and you accept yourself and you sit down and be quiet, is that liberation? In the beginning, of course, she immediately said no. But in the end, when we discussed some of our aspects, she said, that was my liberation. I mean, that was at least the beginning of something where I felt, that must be liberation, and I really feel myself, and I take myself in. Okay, good. In German. One of us said, when she sat down and meditated, or at least started at that time, that she had the feeling that she was coming to herself, that she simply had the feeling that she was feeling herself, that she was getting to know herself and that she was healed, that she was whole.

[09:07]

Okay, thank you. I would like to add something to three. In our group, which was so relieving for many that you talked about it, you mystified this idea of enlightenment and different aspects of enlightenment. In our group many people felt relieved that you, Roshi, demystified the term enlightenment a little bit.

[10:18]

Then the question came up, why did I start practicing, and there was a point that it was just a deep longing in me that had to do with this thing that we all have the same roots, this idea. Then I started to think about why I started practicing and it was that I felt a deep longing and somehow this feeling of sharing the same root. And I had the feeling that really already the decision to practice was a kind of burden. Okay, thank you. Has group one spoken yet?

[11:35]

I can do it, but I forgot already a lot. What I remember is that we were talking why people are meditating and many said that after a while they lost their goal of enlightenment or they never had it, that they just practised for practising. That's good. And it was mentioned how important it is not to practice alone or that it would be probably impossible to sit there on your own. And he said that you would build a wall around you if you're not practicing once in a while in a group so that you have this interaction with the people. And I think in this context, we said practice, somehow bring something into your work or into your daily life where you can easier cope with difficult situations?

[12:41]

Okay, do it. What I found interesting is that some people said that after a while they practice, that they have lost a certain goal, that they practice more because of the practice itself. And what was also mentioned is how important Sangha is, that practicing alone leads somewhere into isolation, that it is important or also necessary that you practice with others and thus have the support. And what was also mentioned is that when we practice, it helps to cope better with work or in any difficult situations. I ask myself, I do it in German. I have on my hand, this is an arm, in my hand, to always, to always remember,

[13:47]

I painted the letter A for attention, in German, Aufmerksamkeit, on my hand to remind me. It's a very good poem. It starts helping. Every time I look at it, I come back to my breasts and it's good support. Okay. So that's group two. Petra? I don't know if I get everything together. I've never gotten everything together. So we're going to do five now. I could see you didn't want to speak.

[15:03]

That's why I called you. Can we speak about the way to come to practice? One reason for some people was the mystery, the mystery in practice. Another reason was starting practice in order that life functions better. One person said that practice helped her in the beginning to concentrate on herself, to try to center herself in order not to get lost in processes.

[16:05]

And then we spoke about how practice works in the life of the different people. And one person said he would start on 1st of August with a schedule, the daily schedule, and he hopes he will really start. Why is he going to wait till the 1st of August? Anyway, go ahead, I'm just teasing. We spoke about how... How can people manage to practice daily or how does it work for their life? And then we spoke about the question how our daily life influences practice. We have talked about the motivation for the practice and it is on the one hand the mystery that one can find in the practice that it helps a lot, that her life works better through the practice, but also that one person said that she can gather in the practice and not lose herself.

[17:21]

I think that's right. Yes, and then we talked about how to bring daily life into practice. Someone said he had made a plan and from August 1st he had a daily routine and he hopes to include it. And we talked about how to sit in the morning, in the evening, before today and also about how life influences practice itself. And group two is still outside discussing something? Okay, group two. Why don't you say something? I cannot remember the... Well, just say anything then.

[18:24]

No. Talk about that. Okay. For some people it was some lack of their life which brought them into practice, and then meeting people helped the people start practicing. So it was the aspect of doing it together with other people. You also talked about that we have to put it in our daily practice to make it work. What was the kind of discussion that people brought in there and how they experienced these questions?

[19:26]

We found out that the questions of life cannot be answered by intellect, but it needs practice. I would have said that on the one hand there is a dissatisfaction or a lack of people who have brought us there to protest and that the meeting of people has an influence on the fact that we protested. These are situations that simply brought us into this practice. I'd like to have at least a taste of what you discussed, so thank you very much.

[20:30]

If there's somebody else who wants to say something, that's okay too. One of my daily questions always is, And I listen to the word liberation. I know the word enlightenment because it's present in the teaching. And this is why people come here often. They say, I come maybe to get enlightened, or at least that's the first word they often use. Directly, it comes into my mind. Liberation of what? And since I'm asking myself, why am I doing this, and I still ask that, and it helps me to be here, because it gives me a lot of strength, I think the question of freedom of, in that situation I'm in, I can ask freedom of what the situation I'm just doing, and I can change it.

[21:40]

So is that liberation or is it not? But on the other hand, I feel there's something when I change it, is already openness, or is already something that develops into a space or into a room which I can experience in a different way than I have experienced before. And so whenever you come up with a word like that, this is why I'm so thankful that often you're here, and I always say, of what? And sometimes I stay in front of that world and nothing happens, because I forget that we all depend on feelings and emotions and all that stuff, and it's difficult. But at least the question I'm asking helps me to start energy into a different direction than I usually think, the daily thought I'm thinking.

[22:49]

Okay. Do I ever said enough? What is that? Very briefly, when this word comes up, especially when I ask myself every day, why am I doing this here, which gives me as much power as words like, what is freedom, or freedom from what? And when I ask this question, it opens up every time, and when I really pay attention to this question, it opens up another room for me every time, and I come out of this everyday, out of the process of being, to be jealous or jealous or greedy. And even if the word greed or jealousy is called, I ask myself, to whom, to what am I greedy, to what am I jealous? So these words help me, and above all this question helps me,

[23:50]

Anyone else? Yes. For me, a question is how strongly I have inherited cultural views. How can I make them conscious? I mean, just to see them, to notice them. And how can I liberate from them? For me, in this context of freedom, the most important questions at the moment are how strongly I have internalized cultural points of view or values, how can I make them aware at all, how can I see how strongly I have internalized them, and how can I, if necessary, free myself from them.

[25:13]

Okay. Now, I believe that Gerald chose this topic. Did you choose this topic? Could be. We did it in a group when we were talking about this year's program. Okay. I believe that Gerald chose this topic for the seminar. It happened in a group. Yeah, so since we have this topic, I'm speaking about it. And we should speak about it because it's implicit in the study of Zen. And it's implicit in this whole yogic way of looking at things. But there are a number of problems about it that made it complicated for us here in the West. But there are also some problems that have made it a bit difficult for us here in the West.

[26:37]

In Zen in the West, it is far more emphasized than in Zen in Japan or China. It looks like the people who brought Zen to the West found in the West a... A way to speak to the West was to speak about religious experience. And in William James and Schleiermacher, is that the right way to pronounce that?

[27:50]

Schleiermacher? William James, Schleiermacher, and others, there was a movement in the West toward looking at the experiential side of religion. And when you bring, or when you look at those people, like D. T. Suzuki being the exemplar, they studied these people. And they seem to have to some extent spoken about Zen and Asian teachings in a way that appealed to us. And strangely enough, they did it to engage the West And there was also a flavor of using it to reject the West.

[29:02]

In other words, the West was dominating poor Asia. The West was dominating Asia. With colonialism and wars. And so there was a movement within Asia, very particularly in Japan. And I think it exists in China right now, which we have to look at in our relationship with China. To say that Asia is actually more unique and we have experiences that you can't understand. In fact, there was a discussion, a recorded discussion between Hisamatsu and D.T.

[30:09]

Suzuki at Harvard, I believe. Hisamatsu, yeah. And Hisamatsu asked D.T. Suzuki, do you think, is there any Westerner you know who's written about Zen who you think understands Zen? Suzuki said no. Do you think there's anyone who's close? No. Do you think there's anyone who you have any hope for might understand someday? Suzuki said no.

[31:11]

Then why do you write all those books? Well, in a large part it was to restore an image of Japan in the West. And if you look at D.T. Suzuki's background he had less study of Zen than many of you. And in my experience in reading him, he doesn't understand Zen very well. I mean, I like his books to some extent and have been influenced by him. But he always makes the koans mysterious and I think basically he doesn't understand them. But it was partly to say that only Asia can understand this pure truth or something.

[32:24]

And then I even had one famous Tibetan teacher say to me, most of us Tibetans exaggerate. And then you had this kind of Zen, Western Zen Japanese school develop. That strongly emphasized enlightenment experience. To a degree that shocked a lot of traditional Zen people in Japan and Rinzai and Soto. And you had people coming over here giving sashines with a lot of shouting and stick waving meant to produce enlightenment experiences.

[33:38]

Sashins often with complete strangers. First sashin ever. It's just going on in the 50s and 60s. In other words, some middle-aged woman sitting there and behind her someone saying, cry! I mean, you know, some of these women went looking for their handbags. I know one woman had her collarbone broken. Yeah, I mean, and some people had some experiences.

[34:42]

And some of the people had experiences. It led to something, and some of it, after a while, it was gone. But most of that stopped now. And part of it stopped because of Suzuki Shinryu, my teacher. Because he just came to the West, to San Francisco. And just refused to practice that way. And refused to... relate to strangers.

[35:43]

He developed a sangha which, as they matured, then he brought Zen teaching in a more real way to them. And most of the folks who were doing these enlightenment sashins got old and died. One or two of them are still around. They're getting old too. But the descendant of these enlightenment sashins are in Europe and America enlightenment intensives and things like that. Yeah. Which may produce something good, I don't know.

[36:43]

But it doesn't have much to do with anything that's been known as Buddhism for the last 2,500 years. Now, is it useful for me to tell you these things? Are you interested in knowing? But it's resulted in a Western understanding of enlightenment that is, emphasis on enlightenment that is quite unusual in Asia. Okay. I've heard that the one school, the Soto school or the Rinzai school, one of them has more emphasis on that line, the Koan school.

[38:07]

I don't know if it's true. So the one school, they all just sit and sit. It's all just sitting, practising, and the other school is focused on that. Is it right? Deutsch? As far as I know, there are two schools in Japan, Soto and Rinzai, maybe even more. In one of them, it was always about sitting and practising, and in the other one, it was more about the enlightenment, about the phased practice, about the kora. I don't know if you can see that. I can't say that's entirely wrong. But it's almost completely wrong. When I lived in Japan, I studied primarily in Rinzai monasteries.

[39:08]

We just sat like in any other monastery. The difference in style is really one of... whether the pressure is from outside or from inside. Rinzai shu, for instance, tends to, now we're talking about Japanese, there's Chinese Linji, which is the ancestor of, or the Chinese version of Rinzai, and that's different. And then there's Korean. versions of these schools. And the Korean schools seem to emphasize quads and so forth much more than any other schools, more than the Japanese.

[40:14]

What? Quads? Quartz is, you know, shouting. Yeah. We had a, not all Korean teachers, but some are like that. We had a Korean teacher come to Tassajara once. Yeah, I rather liked him. But he emphasized drama a lot. It was kind of very dramatic, the way he was giving lectures. And he got up and he had his stick and at some point he shouted. But just at that moment, it was a small earthquake.

[41:16]

I mean, in California, you have them now and then, you know? But it just happened then. The whole Zend is... It was quite impressive. I've been hoping it happens to me one of these days. Check the weather report. But the You see, there's the Soto school and the Rinzai school.

[42:21]

And then there's the lineages within Soto and Rinzai. And my experience is the best lineages within the two schools are pretty similar. And there's also a polemic or style of each of the schools. And, you know, Zen is not idealistic in Japan. Sometimes it is, but they have 30,000 temples. They've got to supply priests and they authorize them and so forth. And I think my own personal opinion is the majority of the Zen teachers there are going through a ritual and their understanding is not very good. That's okay.

[43:25]

I mean, how good is the understanding of most Catholic and Protestant ministers? You can't expect 30,000 priests to all be great adepts at Buddhist practice. And one cannot expect that all 30,000 priests are really advanced in the Buddhist practice. So, but part of this is there's two ways of looking at Zen practice. One's called Tathagata Zen. And one's called ancestral or patriarchal Zen. Now, Tathagata Zen means that you emphasize that the practice itself and the Sambhogakaya body the development of that itself teaches you.

[44:41]

And the ancestral school emphasizes that it's the relationship between teacher and disciple that primarily teaches you. So if you look at the koans, the blue cliff records for instance, it is implicitly often talking about Tathagata Zen and patriarchal, they call it, ancestral Zen. But it's always a mixture. Sometimes the emphasis is more one way or the other. But it's always, because Zen practice that I know, is a lineage practice.

[45:55]

It's always primarily ancestral Zen. But the Zen practice that I know is a transfer practice. That means it's always a form of ancestor Zen. Yikes, yikes. Do you know that word? In comic books like Yikes, Y-I-K-E-S. Yikes, it means, how did I get myself into this? Yes. Once you're deep in it, can you say a few words about Shikanta, sir? You see, there are some basic problems here. One of the big problems is an institution built around basically a shamanic lineage.

[47:36]

I'm using the word shamanic rather loosely, but still there's a similarity to the emphasis on transforming experience. So then the question is, if this is one's own lineage, how do you teach this? How do you share this with people? Because Buddhism is a religion as well as a, let's call it a shamanic lineage. Let's say it's a religion and an adept lineage. In China and Japan, at various points, they developed a way to kind of adjust to both.

[48:56]

And it's also a practice that can be practiced developed rather independently from the adept lineage side of Zen. Are you with me? Am I being fairly clear? But it's very easy for the institution to develop a kind of... implicit dishonesty. And one of the examples of that is to tie enlightenment to a brown robe. Because you're not supposed to wear a brown robe until you're enlightened. But no male Japanese priest over about 30

[50:22]

wants to wear a black robe. They all want to wear brown robes because that's being mature and big and macho. And the local temple doesn't want some priest in a black robe. They want a brown robe, in fact, colors, yellows, reds. And you can't perform certain ceremonies unless you have a brown robe, unless you have transmission. So the solution is transmission is given very easily in... in Japan, which makes transmission pretty meaningless. And that's already happening in the West. You get an awful lot of people. They've been practicing five, six, seven years.

[51:34]

Somebody needs a leader, so they get transmission, they get a brown robe, and they really don't know much. So what's the answer? I don't know. I'm trying to find an answer. Basically, I don't think the brown robe should be tied to a enlightenment. I think it's okay to have gradations in colors as a... some sign of development. And we have to become more realistic about practice and the role of enlightenment within practice.

[52:55]

Okay, so I could say more about this, but you can see the problem, I think. Okay. And there's some significant scholarship going on in Buddhist studies now. Which... say the whole thing is poppycock. And it's just ritualized stuff. And in fact, when you do serious koan study in Japan, in general you're told the answers. You know, that's not necessarily bad.

[54:28]

Because there's quite a lot of understanding developed through the question and then working with the answer and so forth. But it's not the popular image of Zen. In the West. So these scholars are, you know, there's some truth to what they say. One of the scholars, Bernard Fauve, I believe his name, F-A-U-V-E, is extremely brilliant and a master of scholarly apparatus. And he's so smart and skillful that he's very hard to argue with because almost nobody has his knowledge and scholarly skills.

[55:38]

And some people I know know him and they say he's a really nice, sweet guy. But he's debunking. Debunking? Do you know what that word means? Debunk is to expose something as a fraud. But he's debunking Zen. Okay. And there's also a movement to kind of restore the West and say, well, we Western and we Christian, we don't have to look at some pure experience in Japan. Our own Western culture is great. OK. Now, this stuff I've pretty much recognized since I was first started. And I recognized all these things when I started.

[57:05]

Okay. The fact is, enlightenment experiences do happen, no matter what anybody says. It's also the fact that most people who practice won't have them. It's also the case that it seems to be the so-called big enlightenment experiences seem to have an almost genetic factor in it. In other words, if I know a group of people who are practicing, I can see the two or three who are most likely to have enlightenment experiences. And I can see the two or three who are very unlikely to.

[58:07]

And the middle group may be. Okay. What should I do? Should I tell you? Yeah, don't let me waste any more time. I mean, a certain kind of, particularly the physical enlightenment experiences goes with a certain kind of body and energy and so forth. Yeah. In a way, all of this stuff doesn't interest me.

[59:21]

And most of what's going on in the Western Buddhist scene interests me less and less. You know, I know I love to practice. And I know I love to practice with you guys. And whether you're enlightened or not, I don't care because you're wonderful. But what we need to do is have a more subtle idea, understanding of enlightenment. And I don't think we should slip into gradual enlightenment, which I don't think exists. There are certainly many ways in which practice is seemingly gradual. Nor do I think we should fall into silent illumination. And I don't think we should make this too mysterious.

[60:28]

Because making it too mysterious and too much of a body language only understood intuitively It means in fact most people don't understand. But the fact remains some people do. And the fact remains that for the most part All of our practice is quite good. And so I think we have to have a wider understanding of enlightenment to see that it works in us in various ways. And it's not necessarily some big experience.

[61:29]

It is for some people, but not for others. I don't mean that you're not likely... I don't mean that any person may have a distinct enlightenment experience. Any person, almost any person, is capable of a distinct enlightenment experience. For some people it occurs fairly simply, like in their first sesshin. That's not necessarily true. you know, great, you know. Sometimes it's confusing and you don't continue practicing.

[62:39]

For the average person who's, you know, a good practitioner, does require an immersion in practice that most lay people are not able to do. But also most monks don't do it either. So I think we as lay practitioners actually have nearly the same chance to practice effectively as monastics. So I'm trying to steer a course in this Western, in practicing here in the West, to present this teaching

[63:56]

with sensitivity. So it works with us in our Western lives. But I don't want to just teach Buddhist morality. Or values. Or just Buddhist mindfulness practices. I also want to put Buddhist mindfulness practices and meditation practices in the larger context of a vision of enlightenment. And that has a lot to do with changing our viewpoints. And enlightenment is at the center of the concept of this kind of practice.

[65:05]

Because if we're in this loka dhatu, this co-created world that's at this very moment being created, realization means to know that. In yourself. And is the fact the way we already exist? Whether you have the capacity to experience that directly yourself or not, I don't know. Some of you do. Some of you don't. Or some of you may not. But we all can share this vision of an enlightenment practice and support each other in it and recognize how enlightenment works in us in small and big ways.

[66:25]

I think that's enough for me to say at this present time. Can we sit a minute or two? I think we should emphasize is original enlightenment.

[68:02]

And whether we realize that directly ourselves, Or help someone else to realize it directly. Or as all of us do, realize it indirectly. Through practice. So we shouldn't let this kind of polemic of enlightenment discourage us because we are all living in original enlightenment. And that we can come to understand. And I feel you are coming to understand that. And you're beginning to not only understand it, but taste it in your practice and in your life.

[69:18]

Tomorrow I'd like to speak about a wider idea of liberation or freedom. Just limited to an enlightenment experience. Which is not just limited to an enlightenment experience. Because if we emphasize enlightenment too much, Buddhism becomes silly. It's some greedy practice to make yourself special. And there are many ways realization takes place in us. And with others. Now I I think I have to continue with some of this tomorrow.

[72:39]

But I was also thinking of perhaps taking a koan in the morning and at least introducing it during the day. But I'm also open to talking about whatever you'd like me to talk about. Because we have this wonderful opportunity of these days together to practice together and try to understand this great matter together. So let's make use of this time. We sometimes have a chant which says to make use of this opportunity which seldom comes in any lifetime. That's true in an absolute sense.

[73:45]

It's also true in a practical sense, given your busy schedules. Okay, thank you. Good morning.

[74:52]

I will not abandon any view to the vagaries or glories of the enlightened experience. What a relief, huh? Glories? Glory means something very special or nice or a glorified body of the Buddha or something. Nor will I abandon this great teaching to dependence on some kind of experience. But I did feel in some of you yesterday some kind of disappointment.

[76:15]

Or some kind of a feeling that, at least for some of you, might mean something you'd really like. But if you haven't had enlightenment, why do you want it? You've just heard it. It's just gossip. Yeah. And also I feel there's at least, particularly in our society, there's such an emphasis on equality that we want enlightenment to be equally distributed. Or at least our interpretation of enlightenment, of our interpretation of equality is that we shouldn't be excluded.

[77:37]

Of course, life is nothing but a series of exclusions. There's always someone who hasn't invited you to their party. You're reading most of it. Es gibt immer jemanden, der euch nicht zu seiner Feier eingeladen hat. Und das gilt auch für buddhistische Partys. I was, you know, what I was trying to emphasize yesterday was a kind of irony, even making a little fun of the enlightenment experience. Hmm. What we should do, and what I want to do, is get away from this emphasis on a particular experience.

[79:03]

Because like any experience, some people are more likely to have it than others. There's almost an athletic quality to it. Some people are good at football and some people are not so good at football. Because the distinct experience has a lot to do with the kind of energy you have. But that's not really what Buddhism means by enlightenment. It's got to be a wider idea and experience than that. So, I promised our kitchen crew I wouldn't say anything important.

[80:17]

I haven't said anything important. Actually, I didn't promise. I said I'd try not to. Her master's voice. Do you know where that comes from?

[81:24]

The first... Yeah, the first radios in America had this gramophone with a dog listening. His master's voice. RCA, I think. Dogen says we should have a mind free of gaining ideas. He says do not cherish the desire for the fruits of Buddhahood. Do not cherish like you cherish a baby. Do not cherish ideas. The desire for the fruits of buddhahood. Do not... Now, working with this idea, with this statement, is more important than worrying about enlightenment.

[83:07]

What's the logic of it? The logic of it is something like a person who's enlightened doesn't need enlightenment. A person who's enlightened doesn't have gaining ideas. So generate a mind right now free of gaining ideas. Yes. Julia? If you really didn't need it in the full sense of that, yes. That's what Dogen meant. Deutsch?

[84:12]

Maybe I should try to, since this is such a, you know, I've never tried to speak about this much in any detail. In the monastic practice, of course, you don't have to speak about it. And I have lots of other kinds of contact with people where there's another kind of communication. So, I mean, in a monastic situation, I mean, by that I mean a situation like where you're seeing your teacher every day. You could have some kind of experience. And your teacher would immediately deny you had it. Because he doesn't want you to make it part of your personality or overvalue it. He might overvalue it by when you looked at him, he walked away.

[85:32]

He might express that by walking away when you looked at him or something like that. Yeah. But we can't practice together that way when we meet only a few times a year. But, you know, I completely believe in our practice together. So I'm trying to make it work to the best of my ability. Okay. And also, as you know, I'm writing this book. And for the first time in 38 years, I've asked to be out of the schedule. So that except for like this weekend and things, mostly I'm just writing and sleeping. And I discovered, as a friend said, it's the same engine that gives lectures as it writes.

[86:50]

Like if my energy is here practicing with you, even if I have two or three hours this evening, I can't bring the same energy to the writing. So I have to decide whether I say something in the book about enlightenment. And so I'm experimenting with you. So far I'm dubious, I don't know. We could say that Zen is based on both its conception and its pedagogy.

[88:08]

Vision. Condition. Experience. Mystery. and, let's say, maturing of enlightenment. Maybe I should add here, after experience, enactment.

[89:16]

The Tibetan Buddhism, for example, is to a significant degree based on enactment. You take on a state of mind or an image of the Buddha or something and enact it in you. By the vision I mean what I spoke about Friday night and to some extent yesterday. that if you imagine this as a co-created universe, that is in its entirety appearing at this moment, and that we are participating and everything participates in that creation at each moment.

[90:43]

And the most direct knowing of that is to be in the midst of that experiencing directly. As if you were starting from zero. No self, no phenomena, emptiness. And because Buddhism is based on that vision of how things exist, The experience of that is central to Buddhist way of thinking and developing its teaching methods. Is your master okay? Oscar.

[91:57]

What a dog. He wears a brown robe, too. Okay, the condition is the assumption that we live already in the condition of enlightenment. Because if this is how things exist, then we already exist that way. That's one way we speak up that we're already enlightened. but that we keep interfering with that enlightenment. And that's called the kleshas. The kleshas are literally those things that interfere with your enlightenment. Okay, now the experience of enlightenment Includes distinct experiences.

[93:24]

And if we used Babe Maslow's designations, we could say these would be like peak experiences. Of various durations, scope, penetration, and so forth. Scope, penetration. And

[93:44]

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