quite near, halfway the length of this room. And he showed me a barrel, not so big, a big oil barrel. And he said he watched 50 to 100 children a day being drowned in the barrel, being held with their heads in it. And somebody timed it with a watch, three minutes each. And then the taxi driver just sobbed uncontrollably. I don't know what you do in that kind of situation. I think you just have to recognize our humanity is more than we'd like it to be. And somehow we have to be able to allow ourselves to be a vehicle for this suffering.

[01:27]

And somehow in knowing this still to gladly remain in this world I think we should meditate. Could we be in straight lines? I don't know. I look forward to seeing you again at 2.45. Please turn around and probably stretch if you want.

[02:58]

Hello? Our ranks are shrinking.

[04:31]

Can you say that? Five or six people had to leave for various reasons. So now we can get down to the real stuff. I actually said that partly to see if it's translatable. Translatable, huh? Now, there were a couple topics that we were going to discuss today. Can anybody remind me of them or tell me what you'd like me to talk about? I'd like to remind you, tell you something. A couple of various people have asked me to bring up the subject. Is there a sitting group in Heidelberg and are there possibilities to sit together? Something like that.

[05:33]

Do you want to say that in German? Yes, different people have asked me if there is a Sazen group in Heidelberg and if you could meet to meditate together. With all these pictures you're taking, you can enlarge some of them. Is there a sitting group in Heidelberg? As I told you before, in this one church, there's a sitting group. And what's the ancestry of it? It's a group basically without a teacher, just founded by this priest. I see.

[06:33]

And they sit how often? They have opportunities to sit. They offer opportunities to sit four days a week. But they is this kind of, the people there. And different people come on different days. And they have a space or room or something? They have a space, yeah. How many of you live in Heidelberg? Quite a number, yeah. Well, it's pretty difficult to maintain a group without a teacher usually. But you can try, and there's no harm in taking a place that's already in existence and trying to just make it a good place to sit. There might be an advantage to having no teacher too, because then you can kind of do it your own way.

[07:50]

And is this room available? I think so. So if a group of you wanted to meet once a week or twice a week or something, you could probably arrange to use this room. Okay. Let me say about a teacher is... Go ahead, that's all right. I saw him heading for the door, so I thought I'd bring up a topic that might stop him.

[08:54]

Anyway, a teacher is more important than I like to think. Because I notice it's very clear that different groups have different personalities and understandings because of their teacher. I can often decide just by looking at a person who they're studying with. But they start looking like their teacher. And I remember seeing a wedding picture of Zen students and a lot of other people. And I saw wedding pictures of Zen students and also of other people.

[10:03]

And most of these Zen students were beginners. And in the photographs, everybody had their eyes wide open. The Zen students just stared at each other. But to work with the teacher, you don't have to see him or her really so often, once a year or two or three times a year. It can be enough. For your practice to be balanced and for your practice to continue. But if you want to put a lot of energy and life energy and time into practice, then you need more contact.

[11:08]

Yes. Yes. It ain't easy, it's true. Is it possible to have a spiritual contact with the teacher although you never see him? Well, I wouldn't answer that question. I don't know quite what you mean, but... Certainly, if you have, once you've have a real sense of a teacher, you can feel contact with him or her all the time.

[12:10]

I certainly feel that with my teacher. When he was near a few days before he died, I came in to see him And I said, where will I meet you? And his hands were under the covers. He was pretty sick and he lifted his hands out of the covers and went like that and then bowed. So I bowed to him. Anyway, I think the answer is that if you're going to practice Zen, you need contact with, or Buddhism, you need contact with some teacher at least once or twice a year.

[13:19]

And it's helpful to either practice with some other group that doesn't interfere too much with your practice. That doesn't demand you do it their way in case their way is quite different than yours. Anyway, and then it's also helpful to have a few friends that you sit with, depending on how busy your life is, once a day or once a week. But if you want to, as I said, that's good if you're maintaining your practice. If you want to develop your practice, you should see a teacher quite a bit.

[14:28]

Or practice in his or her group regularly. And if possible, spend a few weeks or a few months or a few years with him or her. Someone asked me to mention something I've said about Dharma friends. And I define a Dharma friend as someone who makes you hear yourself. So when you're with this person, this friend of yours, although you're having a real conversation, at the same time you hear yourself. And you feel your own energy and power. And specifically to help you practice, is someone who, when you're with him or her, you actually feel a sensation of practice.

[15:48]

You feel the presence of practice. And if you have a few friends like that, then it helps sustain your practice. Is that enough for now, or do you want to say something else? Yes? Would you say that it's... Well, if you don't find a teacher and you continue practicing on your own, would you say that it's senseless to continue on your own without having a teacher, or it doesn't... Yeah, can you say that in German, or can you... Well, no. If you're a beginner and you want to maintain your practice, it's good to have contact with a teacher, at least occasionally. But if you enjoy sitting or like sitting,

[16:48]

Or it's important for you to sit. Or to practice mindfulness. You can do it completely on your own. You may become a little eccentric. What I mean is, your understanding may become a little eccentric. But... No, no. I mean, geez, if you want to do it, do it. If you have some problem, then you should probably see a teacher. But in general, if you just sit and don't overdo it and you don't invite your thoughts to tea, everything will be okay. Now, one... What? What? When you're sitting and you have various thoughts come by, don't invite them to tea.

[18:27]

Don't invite them to coffee or lunch, dinner or breakfast. And you sort of say, hello there, but I don't have time for you now. I said to somebody, have a nice day. And they said, I'm sorry, I have other plans. Martin asked me I believe that I've said I've given some uh comments about this way of experiencing your body in terms of time and space differently and could I, how does that, do you bring that into your practice, is that right?

[19:58]

Yesterday he played a tape from the Altbach lecture for me. And I found I was giving a talk, and of course I didn't recognize anything I said. It's not unfamiliar, though. And I quoted a koan which says, mount, sound, and straddle space. Mount sound and straddle space. Straddle? Straddle, like straddling a horse. Or straddle between two places.

[21:26]

You put one foot here and one foot here. Can you help me, please? Mount sound and straddle space. Transcending, seeing and hearing. Okay. So I guess Martin's question is something like, it's all very nice, these things you pointed out. What does it have to do with practice or our life? Okay, there's two questions. How can I practice with it? And what does it have to do with practice?

[22:28]

These are not easy questions to answer exactly. I can tell you things, but to actually make it usefully clear is not so easy. First I'm mentioning lots of things. And what I hope happens is that these will become possibilities for you, or you'll see these possibilities now and then. Which reminds me of one thing I wanted to say earlier to my friend here. is that when you're coming up, when you're coming along, when something happens to you psychologically, or let's say psychologically, or you're presented with some kind of personal problem or conundrum, or something...

[23:59]

Possibility of something occurs to you. One thing that's good to do is an exercise. Is to try out all the possibilities. For example, let's make it very simple. Say that you're thinking of leaving your job. And this hasn't really occurred to you. You're just thinking about your job. So you can, even though it hasn't occurred to you, you can say to yourself, what if I leave my job? Then you actually try that on in your meditation and walking around for the next week or two. That's very simple and common sense. But you can develop this as a kind of art in meditation practice.

[25:34]

So like you try on interpretations or possibilities that normally you might say to somebody else, but you wouldn't say to yourself that that's a possibility. And the very thing you'd say, well, that's just out of the question, is the very thing you ought to put into question. This is a very psychological way of working with meditation practice. And although it's common sense, if you use it in meditation practice, you develop a skill at it. You can try out many, many possibilities. And you can get a real feel for them right away. Yeah, just let me... it's very difficult for her on one hand trying not to invite the thoughts to tea and yet to work through something psychologically as you just suggested yeah true

[27:00]

Okay. No, no, that's good. The general... This pillow is a little too small for me. The general... stance of your meditation. is you sit down, you pay a little attention to your breathing, you count your exhales, and thoughts come and go and you pay no attention to them. That's standard classic zazen. And it should be the basic zazen for you. And you get more experienced. There's many things I could say about it, but that's, let's say, standard zazen. But if something else comes up, not just in your thinking during zazen,

[28:24]

Something comes up, not just in your thinking during zazen. And comes up with real force. It doesn't come up just in zazen thinking. What is a problem in your life? and something that's concerning you outside of zazen, and may also come up with real force in zazen, then you can make a specific decision to explore that. This isn't out of keeping, because this is how you work with a koan. Or how you work with examining thoughts to return to the source of thoughts.

[29:39]

So I would say the main practice is, if you're working with zazen, not just doing zazen, There's not inviting your thoughts to tea. There's tracing your thoughts and feelings back to their source. There's watching the transfer of the movement of a a little ball, into a thought, into a feeling, into a perception, into affecting your state of mind, and so forth. Watching the energy of something be sometimes a sensation, sometimes a thought, sometimes a feeling. And then there's taking a specific topic, Buddhist topic, or personal topic, and working with it.

[30:55]

Okay. Those are the four most basic modes of practice. And then, when you get more skillful, there are transformational practices for these things. And using different states of mind and different focuses of being to work with things. And that you need help from a teacher. You had a question? I have a simple question. How do you work with it without a teacher?

[31:58]

You just said that you work with it in meditation. Can you say that in German? Well, what I said about doing zazen and not inviting your thoughts to tea, that's basic zazen which allows you to maintain in your practice. The other things I've been talking about are more if you use zazen as the way in which you work with every aspect of your life. or if you want to not just explore the possibilities of well-being but also the reality of non-being, not only the of well-being but also the reality of non-being,

[33:07]

Then you probably need the help of a teacher or reading some sutras or reading some teachings. In a certain way, there's a way to read and a way to study. But the more one gets into what I would call working with your zazen rather than doing zazen, the more you get into realms where an unstable person or a shaky person could get into trouble. Or you can just go down a lot of blind alleys. Probably more blind alleys. A certain number of blind alleys are good, but too many are kind of tiresome. Yeah, someone else in the back.

[34:28]

Yes? Okay. All right, going back to Martin's question. I'm trying to give you... I'm responding to the question now, how to practice with it. So I'm trying to make you aware of possibilities of being, which will loosen the hold of self or ego on your personality. And we'll loosen the hold of self. I'm using self not in a Jungian way, but just in the ordinary dictionary way.

[35:29]

And we'll loosen the hold of self not in a negative or nihilistic or denial way. But to loosen the hold of self in a wider sense of being rather than a narrower sense of being. And I'm convinced that these things are not so strange that I've been talking about. Und ich bin davon überzeugt, dass diese Dinge gar nicht so eigenartig sind, über die ich gesprochen habe. But they're mostly things we don't notice. Aber dass es einfach Dinge sind, die wir die meiste Zeit nicht wahrnehmen. Or if we do notice them, we don't know they're important. Und wenn wir sie wahrnehmen, dann merken wir nicht, dass sie wichtig sind. Or there are gates.

[36:32]

In Buddhist terms we call them gates. Sie sind einfach Tore, Zugänge. Doorways or something. Türschwellen. And you walk right by them unless you know there's a restaurant inside. Or a spring day in the middle of winter. So I think if I mention them and give you the sense of if I think I've If I mention them, and I think if I mention them, you're more likely to notice the possibilities. As I've said again, noticing or knowing the possibility usually needs to come before direct realization. Now, you people may think, some of you may think, it's just natural for you to do zazen or sit, and you've been sitting since you were young.

[37:41]

I would say that 50 years ago, no one would have said that. If they did say it, they meant something different. Or they didn't mention it. That there is a wide cultural permission now for sitting. Although you may not think it comes from Buddhism, it comes from Buddhism. Or certainly from Asia. Anyway, so I'm mentioning these things to you so you may notice them. And you can't exactly practice Another point of view you don't have or a feeling you don't have.

[39:05]

So the only way you're going to be able to practice with it is to, in your practice, you have a taste or feel of it. You're sitting. You know you're sitting and you're supposed to do it and it's kind of dreary and you're sitting there. And then you suddenly feel a kind of funny ease in your stomach. Or there's a space in your thoughts. Or a funny kind of gratitude comes up for no reason. You might get something like a clear physical image of your stomach or lungs.

[40:11]

So that slight sense of ease that occurred in your stomach or where your neck was felt soft. If somebody's given you some hints or little encouragements beforehand, you may pay attention to that softness or just allow yourself to enter it. Or find a way to without inviting the joy to tea, but not ignoring it or rejecting it either. And to find a way without being greedy or being attached to it to let something like that happen.

[41:13]

For instance, when you go to bed at night, just before you go to sleep, there's a kind of gray, silvery light that you may see around your thoughts. Most of us just go to sleep and say, I haven't fallen asleep yet, and why not go to sleep? And unless you know to pay attention to that gray light, You wouldn't realize it's actually tremendously important. So if I've mentioned that to you as I just did, you might notice it now. It might take a little while before you notice it. But it's there. And so when you go to sleep, you pay attention to this gray light and shift your identity out of yourself, out of your thoughts, into this gray light and sort of let yourself sleep in this gray light.

[42:29]

This is not psychological. This is all, you're kind of entering another kind of being, another kind of way you're organized. When you're doing something like this, you're finding ways that in Buddhism is technically called non-referential knowledge. knowledge that doesn't arise from anything nor refer to anything doesn't make sense but we have a term for it at least called non-referential knowledge okay so that's how to practice with it This is hard work.

[43:40]

A joke? I told him a joke that Brother David told me about the guardian angel. Want me to tell that joke? Where did I tell that joke? I did? Should I tell the joke again? This guy's walking along the street. I've become a comic here. This guy's walking along the street. He's just about to step in the traffic. And a voice says, watch out. So he steps back and his car comes very fast around the corner and he So he goes on a little further. And again, some danger occurs. And his voice says, you better watch out. And it's again... The voice was right and he avoided this danger.

[44:55]

And it happened a third time to him on the same day. This time he got his courage up and said, who said that? And this little voice said, it's me, I'm your guardian angel. I said, my guardian angel, where are you? I'm right here on your left shoulder. He says, I can't see you. I've been here all your life. And I've always been protecting you. But this is the first time you've noticed me. Really? Can you get onto my hand? Yes. Are you on my hand? Yes. Where were you when I got married? Where were you when I started practicing Zen?

[46:25]

I think I've answered why to practice with it, but maybe I could give it some more attention. It's now almost four o'clock. And we started at three or so. Should we take a break? Good. And any last important points we should talk about, please bring up after we start. I might be here for a year just talking away. Someone... Someone asked me again about teachers. There's two sides to the coin. One is that there aren't many.

[48:03]

Tough luck, you were born in the wrong century or the wrong country. Can't be helped. On the other hand, we should thank the Chinese. They drove a number of great Tibetan teachers into our backyard. And jet planes and so forth bring teachers all over the world. So thank pollution. In any case, there are more opportunities for teachers now than even a few years ago. And there's a very fresh approach to Buddhism happening.

[49:12]

It makes a lot of people feel, Asian teachers feel, that the future of Buddhism is in the West. But in the larger sense, your responsibility is to be able to see a Buddha. to be able to recognize a teacher because if you can't recognize a teacher even if you meet one you won't know it but if you can recognize a teacher And you can try to practice in such a way that you're ready for a teacher. Your practice is much more likely to effectively develop.

[50:17]

And that attitude and feeling in a society helps to produce teachers. So that's the larger sense of Certainly I'm here partly because of your feeling. Okay. If you're here because of your feelings, you're acting more like a woman than a man. Well, good. I do wear, you know, long skirts and things.

[51:19]

When I used to go pick up my daughter at school. She'd say, Dad, don't get out of the car. She'd say, you're the only father with no hair. ...who wears dresses... ...and has shoes with white straps. So I'd sit in the car, sort of... Put it on the record. Okay. She would like to know once more why there are so few female Buddhist teachers or female teachers.

[52:25]

Because you haven't worked hard enough yet. I think there will be more Buddhist women Buddhist teachers as there's more societal permission for it. And westerners who have felt, western women who felt excluded from religion in the sense of being leaders are going to be refreshed by Buddhism which for the most part is open equally to men and women.

[53:27]

And men are more open to having women teachers. Certainly two or three. I've had quite a number of very important women in my life, older women. And my first teacher was a woman. Charlotte Selver. Charlotte Wittgenstein actually, she's German. Yes. There are two groups, sitting groups. Rinzai groups in Zurich and the leaders are women. Can I tell you a story? When my daughter, who's now 25... No, no, wrong daughter, sorry.

[54:50]

My daughter, who's now nine. In 1982, about, that's six years ago, so she was three. I was getting ready to go to the monastery, Tassajara. She's quite good at gymnastics and still does gymnastics. And she was jumping between the chair onto the table and back and forth. And then she went from the table to this great big armchair which nearly fell over. And it was about 10.30 at night and she should be in bed. And I still had to drive about 200 kilometers to Tassajara. So I said to Elizabeth, Elizabeth, cut that out. You're acting like a little boy. I said, little girls are supposed to sit calmly holding a doll to their chest. And he cut that out. staring out into space with a benign smile.

[56:10]

And she said, well, some don't. And then she said, and I'm the leader of those who don't. And I said, yeah. Some other question. Yes. Yes. I wanted to come here today, but I see the view that spiritual work is not with money or with a basket.

[57:25]

For me it is clear that if I want something, I have to pay for it. I grew up in a place like that and that's why it doesn't bother me because I have to pay for it. And she says that it doesn't work and that's why she didn't come with me. She has a conflict. Her daughter also meditates and she would have liked her to come. But her daughter has the opinion that spiritual work, you can't... You can't ask for money. You shouldn't do it for money. So this is why she didn't come with her. So can you comment on that? Well, she can fly to Santa Fe. I know the airplane ticket's more expensive, but... And she said it's not a problem for her because she quite understands if you want something, you have to give something back.

[58:27]

But she feels sorry that her daughter didn't come. She should come to Santa Fe. I went to Munich, and there I met a man who talked about healing, 14 days ago, and the big one, maybe 600 times, I don't know exactly, and she drove away again, because she wanted to talk to me, but she, it just doesn't look like it's something like that. And I don't know, so, it's not always him, many people who work for me, Do I understand all that? Did you understand or pick up? Well, I think so, but you can translate it.

[59:31]

Her daughter wanted to see a Tibetan master in Munich, and he charged 600 marks for a week, and she couldn't afford it. And she's pointing out that most of the young people don't have the money to pay for a weekend like that, for example. Yeah, well, I suggested to Ulrike, and she also suggested independently to me, that if somebody asked her and said they couldn't afford it, that she asked me if it was all right to say, Sure. And I said, Sure. So I know all of you can't afford it, so we'll refund your money at the door. So if someone is creative, I want to say it quite freely now, if he, for example, has no money, then there are always ways to see a spiritual teacher. And it is such a somewhat strange attitude in our society that everything that has to do with religion, that it should be free of charge.

[60:34]

And you can see that the church here is financed by tax money and that in such cases So if you'd spoken to Ulrike, your daughter could have come. This is a complicated issue for me, actually. Right. The problem arises that she said, well, this possibility doesn't exist with a forum, that you can kind of get a reduction. Well...

[61:37]

Amongst us, it is sometimes difficult to see what kind of work is behind it. That we would not be carried away by it. The best example I have ever experienced in a conference was when a woman was talking to the student and had to do the same 50, 100, 150 times. This is the process in which people normally do things. I ask everyone to look at themselves and not to say, we don't have any money. This is a special form, a particularly hidden form of selfishness. If you want to do something, then you give up other things and you are ready to get up to it. Then you are also ready to give up your part and this social argument. I'd like you to say something about how it is in Japan that you can't see your teacher without just maybe... Well, okay.

[62:53]

Anyway, this is a complicated issue. And my... I was really the founder, institutional founder of the San Francisco Zen Center. And I developed six businesses for Zen Center. And produced, at the time I resigned, there was $4 million a year gross income. And I did that so the students didn't have to pay much to practice. And so we didn't have to do so much fundraising. So since I'd produced most of the situation, I produced most of the income for the place, virtually all of it, I felt quite free to travel and teach for free.

[64:09]

Since so many people were generous with my center, I felt that I should return that by teaching for free. So when I went to other places or came to England or went to the Soviet Union, I paid for it all myself. And I refused to accept honorariums and so forth. And my students became quite angry with me in San Francisco. They were supporting me to teach for free everywhere in the world. And going to Russia, for instance, was expensive.

[65:27]

It costs at least $5,000 or $6,000 to go and Russia charges you a lot for the rooms. But I was one of the first people to teach Buddhism in the Soviet Union. And we did a lot of things, started the first astronaut cosmonaut conference and so forth. But still, for a lot of students it came down to, I can't travel like he does. And he's spending our money. So in my present group I don't ask them to pay for my trip to Europe. And so far all the times I've come to Europe in the last four years the expenses in the air travel because I've come for short periods of time

[66:28]

I've always lost money. I'm carrying it on my credit cards right now. So this time I tried to stay for six weeks to see if it... And I don't know what it should be charged because I don't know what marks are worth. And if it's too much, you should tell me. And I'm supposed to travel with a helper and another... I mean, as a Buddhist teacher, my obligation is to travel with my older students to teach them. But that means one or two airfares in addition... So anyway, I've had no income myself for five years now.

[67:46]

So it's a real difficult thing for me to figure out. And at the same time, I know, you know, it is funny, the whole relationship to religion is strange. And good in a way, but unrealistic. Friends of mine who claim they learned everything they know about certain kinds of consulting from me get paid two or three or four thousand dollars a day for consulting. Or somebody who will go to a psychoanalyst and pay $100 an hour. Wants to spend all day with me. And then tell me I've changed his life and he's decided to do so and so. And you'll contribute $20. Yes. It's perfectly all right with me, but it makes it hard for me to live.

[68:59]

And Forum has been quite generous with me. And they've invited me over here a number of times. And often you get invited and you're told you're going to be paid by some groups like $3,000 and you get paid $700. But they've been the opposite, they've always given me extra money. Thank you very much. And they know I'm broke, they say, oh well, why don't you take an extra something. So I'd love to teach for free, but I just don't know quite how to do it. And Forum would like to sponsor me, but those guys get no income from Forum either. They just barely break even.

[70:03]

Do you break even? More or less, yes. So it's difficult to... I don't know. I don't know what the solution is. But I guess in Japan, as she says, if you go to a temple, you automatically leave a man. A man is 10,000 yen, which right now is about 60 dollars. When I lived there, it was about $30. And if you see the teacher, you usually leave three man, which in those days would have been $90, and now it's about $200. It's just... It's not even money for the Japanese. It's just... It's just what you do.

[71:06]

I mean, it's just like... I mean, it's as natural as when you go into a restaurant, you don't think, you know, you pay for your coffee, you know. And they don't have the distinction like it should be not connected with money or something like we feel. But when you have a large tradition, an institution that supports you, then you can do everything for free. But when you're starting from scratch and there's no societal support for it for instance, the reason I started so many businesses for the Zen Center because there are many young people who want to practice and their parents would pay for them to go to college But wouldn't pay for them to go to a Zen monastery.

[72:06]

So I had to create the income for them to go to the Zen monastery. But you face the same problem in Europe. How do you create an institution when there isn't societal support for it? You ask me how can there be a teacher and some people ask me could I come back more and so forth. There's a simple answer. If you buy a place And there's room for 20 or 30 people to live there. And I can have a room there. I'll come back all the time. I mean, that's the way you get... That's how we get the teachers to come from Japan.

[73:08]

So we created a place, we built a zendo, and then we said, would you come over here, we have a place for you, we promise you so much a year, etc. It came. But if you have to come here and figure it all out yourself, it becomes very difficult. I'm an old man, I'm running out of energy. I've started six meditation centers in my life. Plus seven businesses. And other things. I'm tired. Anyway, what else? Let's not talk about this anymore. What do you mean? I know it exists a special relation and I'd like to

[74:13]

I think you know that too. Maybe you can say something about it. Because I think it's a thing that belongs to Zen. Because it's able to think with the fingers. I may say, think. Because you're a pianist. Because my fingers, they are thinking the whole day that they are not only touching and grabbing something, they are thinking. They are doing something more than just moving. Yeah, it's the difference between the dolphins and porpoises and whales and us. Dolphins actually have more complex brains than we do. Bigger brains and more folds per unit. But they don't have hands. And a great deal of our intelligence is in our hands.

[75:39]

And the exact posture of your mudra affects your mind. But you just pay attention to it and get familiar with it. Artists know this particularly, and healers know it. Hi. So what else? What about the heart sutra? Oh! That's going to teach you to do kin hin too, walking meditation. Well, I just can't do everything in two and a half days. What time is it? 4.40 and we're going to stop at 5 or 5.30.

[77:02]

What time would you like to stop? Right now? What? Martin, did you say right now? You can leave if you want. What do you want to do? Stop right now? No. 6 o'clock. 6 or 5.30 or 6... And how many Doksans am I supposed to do tonight? So far, four people on the list. Okay. One more question, then we'll sit for a few minutes, then we'll take a break, and then I will speak about the Heart Sutra. And maybe instead of sitting for a few minutes, we'll do walking meditation. So, Dieter, you have a question?

[78:02]

Yes, I wanted to ask about the interpretation of the Buddhist view. Do you want to say it in English? What is, from your point of view, how do you look at the cross as a symbol and the crucifixion? Crucifixion. Why are you asking? Well, I'm interested in how... Just whether there is a symbiotic or a similar experience? And if there is a difference in the Menschen?

[79:14]

Menschen with the image of mankind? Yeah. Gosh! What makes you think I can answer such a question? Yeah, that's probably true. Well, religion requires a little toughness. And this is a pretty tough image of Christ on the cross. But we've got our little stick. So... tough image Christianity is just because it's a religion there's no reason to assume it's similar to there's no reason to assume it's similar to Buddhism I don't yeah

[80:38]

I think that in fact what I've been trying to understand in teaching Buddhism in America is what is the personal and societal territory of Buddhism in America. I don't think it's the same territory that the Protestant, Catholic and Jewish religious institutions now occupy. The territory that religion occupies in Europe is not clear to me. Europeans seem to me both more free of religion than Americans and more religious at the same time. So anyway, I'm just learning here. But I think Buddhism will occupy a different territory. But there will be some overlap.

[82:12]

And Buddha is a, excuse me, Christ is a image of man and God who suffered for us. Avlokiteshvara the Bodhisattva mentioned in this Heart Sutra is one who suffers with us and not for us and that's a rather different preposition and the image in Buddhism that corresponds to Christ on the cross And the lotus is used in Buddhism because its roots are in the mud and in the muddy water.

[83:14]

And its bloom is above the water. And different from lilies which float on the water. Lotuses are actually, if you've seen them lift up above the water, sometimes quite high. So the emphasis is that the Buddha is completely immersed in the mud of our life. But at the same time has this other mode of being which is free of the mud and free of the suffering.

[84:16]

And the sense in Buddhism is the more you can be free of suffering, the more you can suffer with. Is that sufficient? So we have here Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva. When practicing the wisdom that has gone beyond wisdom realize that the five skandhas where are you? I'm putting in different words. Realize that the five skandhas realize that feelings that form feelings, perceptions, impulses, consciousness

[85:20]

have no own being. Each one of them has no own being. Are empty. And through that perception was freed from suffering. He was freed from suffering. Okay. So why don't we do some walking meditation. And if you'll all stand up, and you'll stand in four lines, one across here, one across there, one across the back, and one across here. And if you don't want to participate, you can sit in a chair or So now we're going to do the walking meditation and stand up in four rows and whoever doesn't want to participate can stay seated on a chair.

[86:37]

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